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: Instant Call?  ( 23421 )
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« : Aug 26, 2014 at 14:19 »

I don't think so. I think I took about 15 seconds to contemplate the action.

SAT night I played in a Bounty Tourney at Wedges. First hand at the final table played out like this.

Seat 2 (me, Big Blind of 10k). I have approx 180k in chips
Seat 4 shoves for 125k
seat 5 says "that was my move"..........then shoves for less
seat 6 (wedge) shoves with little contemplation. I believe he is the chip leader (has more than I do).

Gets back to me at seat two. I look down at Pocket K's. As I said. I think I took 10-15 seconds before calling.

Several players at the table comment that this is an instant call. With Wedge having me covered, and that he was will willing to shove over two all ins I thought I should think about this for a second.

My hand held up and I went from 180k to around a half million in chips.

B

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Martini
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***
: 9999



« #1 : Aug 26, 2014 at 16:30 »

Kings are 70% against Ax so even if one person is shoving with a naked Ace you're still going to lose that hand about a third of the time.

There's no extra points for speed. Even if I pick up Aces in that spot it's not an instant call for me. They aren't foolproof and I need to consider all of the stacks, what the payouts are, where the bubble is, etc. The dumbest thing in the world would be sitting in a theoretical scenario where you snap called then only figured out after the board runs out that folding would have guaranteed you moving up the money ladder two spots and instead you busted out with nothing.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
NotFadeAway
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: 4493


4 8 15 16 23 42


« #2 : Aug 27, 2014 at 18:51 »

Definitely not an automatic call.  Personally, I couldn't criticize a call or a fold, given the ridiculous action.

I can't agree with Martini on one point though:  I'd definitely fist pump call with aces...  ;D

Take my love.  Take my land.  Take me where I cannot stand.  I don't care.  I'm still free.  You can't take the sky from me.
AzCat
MTPL
Regular
***
: 780



« #3 : Aug 27, 2014 at 23:08 »

This two-table tournament included a total of 16 players.

When this hand came up, the final table of 9 players had just formed.

Here are the details:

Blinds are 5k/10k/1k.

I was Seat 4 (UTG). I look down at As-9s with roughly 125k (12 BB's) and pushed.

Seat 5 (tight, tight player, not that it matters here) with a little more than me quickly calls all-in.

Seat 6 (Wedgerock) moves all-in after a few seconds. He is the clear chip leader at this point with 600k plus.

It folds back to Seat 2 (Detroitdad) who pauses for a few seconds, (I definitely wouldn't say 15 seconds, more like 5-7 seconds) and then announces he calls.

I show my As-9s, Seat 5 (tight, tight player) shows pocket 10's, Wedgerock shows pocket jacks and Detroitdad shows his pocket kings.

The flop brings a king and that is all she wrote.

SO, if I had kings in DD's position and chip stack in THIS tourney, hell yes, I instantly call without hesitation.

It worked out for him.

In "Confessions of a Winning Poker Player," Jack King said, "Few players recall big pots they have won, strange as it seems, but every player can remember with remarkable accuracy the outstanding tough beats of his career."

Azcat (not a real cat)
TwoToGo-Grave
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« #4 : Aug 28, 2014 at 03:12 »

The question of how many places pay and what are the payouts matter for sure. You can fold and almost guarantee at least third (out of 16, that might well get you past bubble, after all.) Also, KK is a monster, but it's just a hand. You can fold second nut flushes or second nut sets or boats and I think everybody agrees with this, yet people act like folding KK pre is impossible. I mean, I think most anybody would call here, but it's unquestionably worth consideration before calling, imo. It's just hard to ever fold KK four handed, as other players are lowering their shoving/calling ranges, and also hard with 18bbs. It seems like snap calling is playing by rote and without thought, and taking a moment to think about it is much preferred, just in case there's something about the situation you missed if nothing else.
mike32
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: 234



« #5 : Aug 28, 2014 at 12:29 »

Just reading this thread now, I was also at the table. I thought Bill acted just fine in thinking about calling for a few seconds. I think some people are a bit over sensitive on this issue. I would probably done pretty much exactly what he did in this situation. Also I had pocket 4's in this hand but with 3 all-ins in front of me it was a fairly quick fold!
nutN2Lewz
Administrator
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*****
: 3670



« #6 : Aug 28, 2014 at 14:29 »

I think it's an instant-call unless there are considerations about people busting out and the finishing order. In this case there were considerations about busting out and the finishing order - that needed some thought.

Pocket kings? I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees. I'm all-in!
-Emiliano Zapata

Good luck, nutn
Wedge Rock
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CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #7 : Aug 28, 2014 at 18:22 »

Another important note is that this was a bounty tournament where each knockout got $30, but there was no prize except for first place ($95 + $30 for the second place finishers bounty + $30 for your own bounty = $155).  So moving up the pay scale is not much of a consideration nine-handed, however, collecting two bounties might be.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« #8 : Aug 28, 2014 at 18:52 »

I also needed points.  Top 3 points are substantially better than 9th place points if I remember correctly.

Did you think it should have been a snap call?

If you didn't have me covered it would have been a snap call.  Otherwise I thought a few seconds to contemplate it was smart.  Coming from a Champions perspective :)
« : Aug 28, 2014 at 18:55 Detroitdad »

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
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CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #9 : Aug 28, 2014 at 19:11 »

Did you put me on aces?

I had Azcat on the raggy hand that he hand.  After the speech by the tight player ("that was my move") I knew she wasn't super strong; she probably had Az on a similar hand and figured her pair was better.  But there were too many hands behind her.

I figured my jacks were good, but I didn't want any big non-paired hands to play (I figured queens and up is calling).  That was essentially a $60 hand (two KO's).  Unless you put me on aces, not sure how you can fold.  And if I ran KK into AA in that hand, well, gg me.

More questionable than snap-calling with KK there was calling a 400K AI bet on the flop with "just a flush draw" when we were four-handed...  but that's because you're a better player than me.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #10 : Aug 28, 2014 at 23:35 »

Another important note is that this was a bounty tournament where each knockout got $30, but there was no prize except for first place ($95 + $30 for the second place finishers bounty + $30 for your own bounty = $155).  So moving up the pay scale is not much of a consideration nine-handed, however, collecting two bounties might be.

Yeah, important piece of information there which substantially changes the situation.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« #11 : Aug 29, 2014 at 09:09 »

Did you put me on aces?

I had Azcat on the raggy hand that he hand.  After the speech by the tight player ("that was my move") I knew she wasn't super strong; she probably had Az on a similar hand and figured her pair was better.  But there were too many hands behind her.

I figured my jacks were good, but I didn't want any big non-paired hands to play (I figured queens and up is calling).  That was essentially a $60 hand (two KO's).  Unless you put me on aces, not sure how you can fold.  And if I ran KK into AA in that hand, well, gg me.

More questionable than snap-calling with KK there was calling a 400K AI bet on the flop with "just a flush draw" when we were four-handed...  but that's because you're a better player than me. can't argue that point.

Your right about AzCat's hand. I thought the same. I usually don't give Angie much respect for her hands, so agree with you there as well.

You being the 3rd all in did have me concerned that you could have Ace's. Maybe it wasn't a valid concern, but anytime I'm facing three all ins, with a possible elimination on my part. I think a few seconds should be taken to consider the action.

We've played three games this season. My points are total sh%t. I needed a good showing. That was on my mind as well.

The last two seasons I have "attempted" to take the League Tourney games more serious (instead of just a gateway to the cash games).

A call is imminent, I just don't think its a snap call.

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jaywa
Regular
***
: 255



« #12 : Aug 29, 2014 at 11:40 »

Wouldn't be a snap call at all for me. Especially with points involved etc. As someone above said it would really be about who it was all-in and their stack sizes. That's a huge pot that you are most likely ahead in pre-flop, but if anyone has AA you are like 20% pre-flop, tough call.

Smith and Wesson beats 5 of a kind.
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« #13 : Aug 29, 2014 at 12:00 »

Wouldn't be a snap call at all for me. Especially with points involved etc. As someone above said it would really be about who it was all-in and their stack sizes. That's a huge pot that you are most likely ahead in pre-flop, but if anyone has AA you are like 20% pre-flop, tough call.


Seat 2 (me, Big Blind of 10k). I have approx 180k in chips
Seat 4 shoves for 125k
seat 5 says "that was my move"..........then shoves for less
seat 6 (wedge) shoves with little contemplation. I believe he is the chip leader (has more than I do).

Only wedge had me covered. Even if I lose to one of the other two stacks I'm hit pretty damn hard.

In a stand alone bounty tourney, or in a cash game I would probably snap call fwiw.

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
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: 9524


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #14 : Aug 29, 2014 at 13:28 »

A call is imminent, I just don't think its a snap call.

As soon as you contemplated a call, I knew I was behind.  I don't think AK, AQ or >JJ in that spot is much of a choice.  So I figured you were QQ, KK or AA.

If I flat Angie's all in, do you flat or raise?

If you flat, I probably C-bet the K-high flop and I assume you shove.  At that point, I can probably let me jacks go and save myself a couple 100k.  But that's pretty results-oriented thinking.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« #15 : Aug 29, 2014 at 13:46 »

A call is imminent, I just don't think its a snap call.

As soon as you contemplated a call, I knew I was behind.  I don't think AK, AQ or >JJ in that spot is much of a choice.  So I figured you were QQ, KK or AA.

If I flat Angie's all in, do you flat or raise?

If you flat, I probably C-bet the K-high flop and I assume you shove.  At that point, I can probably let me jacks go and save myself a couple 100k.  But that's pretty results-oriented thinking.

I shove. Calling would only leave me around 50k. If I'm committing 125k preflop it might as well all go in right now.


The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13461



« #16 : Aug 29, 2014 at 15:35 »

fwiw, its nice to see an actual poker discussion taking place here.


The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
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: 9524


CC&GTCC # R-7604


« #17 : Aug 29, 2014 at 16:11 »

I shove. Calling would only leave me around 50k. If I'm committing 125k preflop it might as well all go in right now.

Probably the same result then...  not sure.  I don't know if I am willing to believe that I might be ahead, and if its only another 50k into a pot that big, I'm probably calling.

fwiw, its nice to see an actual poker discussion taking place here.

Agreed.

Wedge Rock (not a real rock)



Guilty of over-using ellipses...
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