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: Another 1/2 PLHE hand  ( 3456 )
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« : Aug 29, 2012 at 17:21 »

A few more hands from the insane PLHE game I have been playing in a little more.  Maybe this can save us from that flood of not-much going on in the feed.

Hand #1

It's about an hour and a half into the game.  Most stacks (including ours) are well above $200.  The game, as usual is a loose/passive group of people.  Betting doesn't mean that much, but a raise is almost always a hand...a check/raise is always a hand.

Folds to us in the HJ, we open to $6 with  jspades 9spades .  We have around $400.  The button ($65) calls, the BB ($325) calls.  ** The button is a pretty bad player.  Sees almost every flop, goes broke with one pair often.  The BB is pretty solid.  He bluffs maybe once per night in a significant pot.

Flop:   8diamonds 4spades 7spades  Pot:  $19

BB checks, we bet $13 and get flatted in both spot.

Turn:  8hearts Pot:  $58 BB checks.....action?  With the button only having $40ish left, do we check/fold or do we lead and gamble when he shoves, assuming he does?

[spoiler]I led for $25, which in retrospect was almost certainly a mistake.  The Button shoves for $49 total, the BB deliberated and cold-called.  Back to us...$24 to call, $143 in the pot.[/spoiler]
« : Aug 29, 2012 at 22:43 stooks99 »

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #1 : Aug 29, 2012 at 19:45 »

I don't know Button's tendencies. Does he bluff a lot? Does he stab if last to act? Also don't know what Button would have done with a Set on the Flop.

Anyway, without any more information, I'm inclined to do a little Hollywooding here so it looks like I just made a big hand then act like I'm "cautiously" checking and try to take off a free card. Then on the River, if we make our either our Straight or Flush I would call the BB or if checks, bet $15. If Button raises then we kinda have to pay him off since he could think his naked Eight is good. If we miss I fold to a bet from the BB but still bet $15 if checked to but fold to any raise.

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Zombie
Regular
***
: 427



« #2 : Aug 29, 2012 at 20:42 »

To start, I would think the $13 post flop was low vs 3 opponents. You raised Pre-flop, so the solid player isn't going to think you caught anything with 8-7-4. At best, a $13 bet says "I'm on a draw" (straight or flush, doesn't matter). You needed to say "Y'all can't beat my pair or Ace/kicker" with a semi-bluff or just rode it out for a free card.

Now you're in a crazy bad spot. You cannot represent trips, unless you tend to raise preflop with a weak Ace (I'm assuming 10 seats at the table). Betting less than $40 (including a check) still declares you are on a draw, and you will get called by anyone with a nut flush draw or quads. You will get re-raised by The Button (pot committed) or by trip 8s, who wouldn't want you to see the last card.

So, having said all that...
I'm inclined to do a little Hollywooding here so it looks like I just made a big hand then act like I'm "cautiously" checking and try to take off a free card.
^^^^ That.

Mediocre poker players never die, they're just blinded away.
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #3 : Aug 29, 2012 at 21:01 »

To start, I would think the $13 post flop was low vs 3 opponents.
...

It was raised to $6, called in two places, and the SB folded.

...
Flop:   8diamonds 4spades 7spades  Pot:  $19
...

Edit to add that I just read stooks99's reply. I see that the $13 was in reference to the Flop bet, not the money in the middle after the Flop. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
« : Aug 29, 2012 at 23:15 Martini »

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« #4 : Aug 29, 2012 at 22:36 »

As a follow up, I will say that in this game, people will call with hands like kspades qdiamonds or other non-pair/non-draw type hands on flops like this.  I doubt both of them are doing this, but I thought it was worth mentioning.  The button doesn't tend to bet with air, but then again, neither does the BB. To sum up, their calls don't have to mean much at all.  Either of them can have something from 99 to AK.  I think they also call with sets and pocket pairs, although the BB tends to check/raise super strong hands, so a flopped set seemed unlikely in tempo.

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« #5 : Aug 29, 2012 at 22:40 »

To start, I would think the $13 post flop was low vs 3 opponents. You raised Pre-flop, so the solid player isn't going to think you caught anything with 8-7-4. At best, a $13 bet says "I'm on a draw" (straight or flush, doesn't matter). You needed to say "Y'all can't beat my pair or Ace/kicker" with a semi-bluff or just rode it out for a free card.


I don't think $13 into $19 is significant in either direction.  The only pairs folding this flop are maybe 22, 33, and maaaayyyyybbeee 55 (but unlikely).  They aren't putting me on 9T or 69, for sure.  I suppose they could be giving me anywhere from two naked overs to a big pair in my hand.  I am in a tough spot because the button flatted on the flop, which, to me, is a mistake no matter what he has. 

I don't think I'm ever getting a free card here, but I also know that this group loves to "bet the pot" on the turn.  I often put out defensive bets in this game so that I can dictate the price I pay to draw. 

Having said all that, I updated the OP with turn play.

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #6 : Aug 29, 2012 at 23:33 »

[spoiler]
IF you are going to bet I don't mind the $13 size into a $19 pot.

As stated previously, I don't mind trying to get a free card there. If you get one, great. If button bets you get to see how much it's going to cost and what BB does. If it's cheap enough and you think your outs are still good then you can make the call.

As is, you are $25 deep and may well be getting the proper odds to call to catch in order to beat Button but if BB has your Flush covered with a larger one then you won't be able to win the main pot with a Flush nor would you win any side pot that formed if a Spade falls. You would then be pinning all your hopes on a gutter. Or you could simply be drawing dead if BB had 87 and just boated up or he could have an 8 but no Boat and catch his side card on the River.

If BB were short stacked then I could see more justification in continuing with the hand if you think Button is bad enough to pay you off with a naked 8 or with a Straight to your Flush. But as is, I would just stop throwing good chips after bad and fold.

I'm not sure why you think Button couldn't have a hand to flat call with there. I'm definitely staying in the hand with As5s, As6s, 89, etc.
[/spoiler]

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« #7 : Aug 29, 2012 at 23:49 »

[spoiler]
IF you are going to bet I don't mind the $13 size into a $19 pot.

As stated previously, I don't mind trying to get a free card there. If you get one, great. If button bets you get to see how much it's going to cost and what BB does. If it's cheap enough and you think your outs are still good then you can make the call.

As is, you are $25 deep and may well be getting the proper odds to call to catch in order to beat Button but if BB has your Flush covered with a larger one then you won't be able to win the main pot with a Flush nor would you win any side pot that formed if a Spade falls. You would then be pinning all your hopes on a gutter. Or you could simply be drawing dead if BB had 87 and just boated up or he could have an 8 but no Boat and catch his side card on the River.

If BB were short stacked then I could see more justification in continuing with the hand if you think Button is bad enough to pay you off with a naked 8 or with a Straight to your Flush. But as is, I would just stop throwing good chips after bad and fold.

I'm not sure why you think Button couldn't have a hand to flat call with there. I'm definitely staying in the hand with As5s, As6s, 89, etc.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]In reference to his call being bad, I think any hand worth continuing merits moving in.  He's going to call $13 and leave himself less than the pot on the turn, which is a pretty bad spot to be in.  This also should have set a light off in my head that I was probably going to get stuck for the full $49 on the turn if I decided to bet.  It didn't, and I think leading the turn for $25 was a pretty gruesome mistake. 

But, back to his potential hands.   If he somehow had 99-JJ or A8 or two big spades, not raising is pretty bad, I think.  If he has a pair of sixes and think I've got a naked AK, he's got to shut out the BB.  Obviously, if the BB wakes up with a hand, he's dead, but with only $49 going to the turn, he's pretty much getting it in on every single board.[/spoiler]

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #8 : Aug 29, 2012 at 23:55 »

[spoiler]
IF you are going to bet I don't mind the $13 size into a $19 pot.

As stated previously, I don't mind trying to get a free card there. If you get one, great. If button bets you get to see how much it's going to cost and what BB does. If it's cheap enough and you think your outs are still good then you can make the call.

As is, you are $25 deep and may well be getting the proper odds to call to catch in order to beat Button but if BB has your Flush covered with a larger one then you won't be able to win the main pot with a Flush nor would you win any side pot that formed if a Spade falls. You would then be pinning all your hopes on a gutter. Or you could simply be drawing dead if BB had 87 and just boated up or he could have an 8 but no Boat and catch his side card on the River.

If BB were short stacked then I could see more justification in continuing with the hand if you think Button is bad enough to pay you off with a naked 8 or with a Straight to your Flush. But as is, I would just stop throwing good chips after bad and fold.

I'm not sure why you think Button couldn't have a hand to flat call with there. I'm definitely staying in the hand with As5s, As6s, 89, etc.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]In reference to his call being bad, I think any hand worth continuing merits moving in.  He's going to call $13 and leave himself less than the pot on the turn, which is a pretty bad spot to be in.  This also should have set a light off in my head that I was probably going to get stuck for the full $49 on the turn if I decided to bet.  It didn't, and I think leading the turn for $25 was a pretty gruesome mistake. 

But, back to his potential hands.   If he somehow had 99-JJ or A8 or two big spades, not raising is pretty bad, I think.  If he has a pair of sixes and think I've got a naked AK, he's got to shut out the BB.  Obviously, if the BB wakes up with a hand, he's dead, but with only $49 going to the turn, he's pretty much getting it in on every single board.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I see what you're talking about now. Yeah, if you're betting $25 then flatting is not optimal. I suppose you could make a contrived case for flatting if he's sitting on a monster in order to try to extract an extra bet from both BB and you assuming a raise would push BB out. After putting in $25 you can't really not call his raise if BB folds.[/spoiler]

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« #9 : Aug 30, 2012 at 00:11 »

[spoiler]
IF you are going to bet I don't mind the $13 size into a $19 pot.

As stated previously, I don't mind trying to get a free card there. If you get one, great. If button bets you get to see how much it's going to cost and what BB does. If it's cheap enough and you think your outs are still good then you can make the call.

As is, you are $25 deep and may well be getting the proper odds to call to catch in order to beat Button but if BB has your Flush covered with a larger one then you won't be able to win the main pot with a Flush nor would you win any side pot that formed if a Spade falls. You would then be pinning all your hopes on a gutter. Or you could simply be drawing dead if BB had 87 and just boated up or he could have an 8 but no Boat and catch his side card on the River.

If BB were short stacked then I could see more justification in continuing with the hand if you think Button is bad enough to pay you off with a naked 8 or with a Straight to your Flush. But as is, I would just stop throwing good chips after bad and fold.

I'm not sure why you think Button couldn't have a hand to flat call with there. I'm definitely staying in the hand with As5s, As6s, 89, etc.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]In reference to his call being bad, I think any hand worth continuing merits moving in.  He's going to call $13 and leave himself less than the pot on the turn, which is a pretty bad spot to be in.  This also should have set a light off in my head that I was probably going to get stuck for the full $49 on the turn if I decided to bet.  It didn't, and I think leading the turn for $25 was a pretty gruesome mistake. 

But, back to his potential hands.   If he somehow had 99-JJ or A8 or two big spades, not raising is pretty bad, I think.  If he has a pair of sixes and think I've got a naked AK, he's got to shut out the BB.  Obviously, if the BB wakes up with a hand, he's dead, but with only $49 going to the turn, he's pretty much getting it in on every single board.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I see what you're talking about now. Yeah, if you're betting $25 then flatting is not optimal. I suppose you could make a contrived case for flatting if he's sitting on a monster in order to try to extract an extra bet from both BB and you assuming a raise would push BB out. After putting in $25 you can't really not call his raise if BB folds.[/spoiler]


[spoiler]To wrap up this sh%t-storm of a hand, I called the extra $24 on the turn...the pot was so big, I thought that even if I was drawing dead in this particular hand, it was a profitable spot in the long run.  I fully expected the river to be checked by the BB.  I made a flush on the river ( 6spades , I think) and ended up paying off a $100 bet from the BB, even though I knew he always has a hand there.  The BB had flopped a set of 4s, and the button had a set of 7s.  I was dead on the turn.  Even ignoring results, I think the mistakes I made on the turn and river of this hand a pretty big.  I don't routinely put myself in these spots, so I don't worry about it being a "leak", but this hand bugged me for a while.[/spoiler]

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
Martini
Regular
***
: 9999



« #10 : Aug 30, 2012 at 00:31 »

[spoiler]
IF you are going to bet I don't mind the $13 size into a $19 pot.

As stated previously, I don't mind trying to get a free card there. If you get one, great. If button bets you get to see how much it's going to cost and what BB does. If it's cheap enough and you think your outs are still good then you can make the call.

As is, you are $25 deep and may well be getting the proper odds to call to catch in order to beat Button but if BB has your Flush covered with a larger one then you won't be able to win the main pot with a Flush nor would you win any side pot that formed if a Spade falls. You would then be pinning all your hopes on a gutter. Or you could simply be drawing dead if BB had 87 and just boated up or he could have an 8 but no Boat and catch his side card on the River.

If BB were short stacked then I could see more justification in continuing with the hand if you think Button is bad enough to pay you off with a naked 8 or with a Straight to your Flush. But as is, I would just stop throwing good chips after bad and fold.

I'm not sure why you think Button couldn't have a hand to flat call with there. I'm definitely staying in the hand with As5s, As6s, 89, etc.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]In reference to his call being bad, I think any hand worth continuing merits moving in.  He's going to call $13 and leave himself less than the pot on the turn, which is a pretty bad spot to be in.  This also should have set a light off in my head that I was probably going to get stuck for the full $49 on the turn if I decided to bet.  It didn't, and I think leading the turn for $25 was a pretty gruesome mistake. 

But, back to his potential hands.   If he somehow had 99-JJ or A8 or two big spades, not raising is pretty bad, I think.  If he has a pair of sixes and think I've got a naked AK, he's got to shut out the BB.  Obviously, if the BB wakes up with a hand, he's dead, but with only $49 going to the turn, he's pretty much getting it in on every single board.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I see what you're talking about now. Yeah, if you're betting $25 then flatting is not optimal. I suppose you could make a contrived case for flatting if he's sitting on a monster in order to try to extract an extra bet from both BB and you assuming a raise would push BB out. After putting in $25 you can't really not call his raise if BB folds.[/spoiler]


[spoiler]To wrap up this sh%t-storm of a hand, I called the extra $24 on the turn...the pot was so big, I thought that even if I was drawing dead in this particular hand, it was a profitable spot in the long run.  I fully expected the river to be checked by the BB.  I made a flush on the river ( 6spades , I think) and ended up paying off a $100 bet from the BB, even though I knew he always has a hand there.  The BB had flopped a set of 4s, and the button had a set of 7s.  I was dead on the turn.  Even ignoring results, I think the mistakes I made on the turn and river of this hand a pretty big.  I don't routinely put myself in these spots, so I don't worry about it being a "leak", but this hand bugged me for a while.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Sounds like you beat yourself up a bit over this hand...so let me help you out with a little more. ;) Assuming BB is a reasonable player here, I really don't like paying him off. With three Spades on board and BB betting what are you beating? Any combination of Ts, 8s, 5s, 3s, and 2s which are all pretty bad holdings then you can further remove one of the more reasonable holdings, 3s5s as well as the rough 5s8s since they both complete Straight Flushes. So BB almost certainly has a better Flush or a Boat. If BB is going to bet here with just Trips often enough then that would be the only reason to make a call. But even then, what 8 does he have? 87 is still a Boat. 89 would be safe for you as would A8. You know the player better than anyone else here but having just Trip Eights on a three Spade paired board is a check/call at best from early position in my game.
[/spoiler]

(not a real alcoholic beverage)
Zombie
Regular
***
: 427



« #11 : Aug 30, 2012 at 12:28 »

I can see how that hand would stick with you a while. I had a very similar circumstance within the past few weeks, which is why my thoughts on the matter ($13 into $19 didn't tell you much, told them everything) were very clear to me.

Sure, betting $22 into $19 (post-flop) was going to cost you $22 more, but if BB called, you might have seen his trips - and small losses are better than big ones.

Obviously, you see the error with the $25 Turn bet, so nothing new to say here.

I always look at losses like this as a learning experience, and $168 is a hell of a lot less than I paid for college.

In poker, you never lose money until your chips are down and you don't know what went wrong.

Mediocre poker players never die, they're just blinded away.
stooks99
Regular
***
: 1485



« #12 : Aug 30, 2012 at 14:04 »

I can see how that hand would stick with you a while. I had a very similar circumstance within the past few weeks, which is why my thoughts on the matter ($13 into $19 didn't tell you much, told them everything) were very clear to me.

Sure, betting $22 into $19 (post-flop) was going to cost you $22 more, but if BB called, you might have seen his trips - and small losses are better than big ones.

Obviously, you see the error with the $25 Turn bet, so nothing new to say here.

I always look at losses like this as a learning experience, and $168 is a hell of a lot less than I paid for college.

In poker, you never lose money until your chips are down and you don't know what went wrong.

Betting $22 into $19 isn't allowed in this game. Also, I don't see how betting more than 2/3 the pot gives me any more info than betting the full $19 here.

When you kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.  -- Winston Churchill

www.deadmoneypoker.webs.com
Zombie
Regular
***
: 427



« #13 : Aug 30, 2012 at 14:40 »

Betting $22 into $19 isn't allowed in this game. Also, I don't see how betting more than 2/3 the pot gives me any more info than betting the full $19 here.

My bad...
I saw PLHE, but was still thinking NLHE. I've never played pot limit, so my decisions were based on a different game.

As for 2/3 the pot, the fish will likely call, but maybe I'm reading him wrong (obviously I wasn't there). That means the BB is getting nearly 4-1 on his call (3.5-1, but I'm assuming no math geniuses). That won't help you define his hand, which is the only reason I bet the flop unless I have a monster.

Mediocre poker players never die, they're just blinded away.
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #14 : Aug 30, 2012 at 15:00 »

Why would you want to play PLHE anyways, lol. The game sounds horrible imo.


carry on

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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