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: Monster Pot  ( 11017 )
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« : Nov 08, 2009 at 17:49 »

Game: Cash, NLHE
Stakes: .25/.50
6 players left

Three players in the hand

DD---Button
Angie-----SB
Mike32----BB

I have played with Angie for several years now. I believe I have a decent read on her. This is the first time I have played with Mike32, no history, no idea how he plays. He appears to be a solid/TAG player.

First off, Mike32 or Ryder, please feel free to correct any mistakes by me. My hand retention sucks, and I was slightly buzzed.

It folds around to me. I look down at  kspades tspades. I decide to raise it. I believe I make it 2 bucks.

Angie and Mike both call.

Flop is  kdiamonds 7spades 4spades  (actually, not sure about the 7).

Angie is first to act and best $6's. Mike thinks for a second and calls. I think for a minute on how I want to handle this. I contemplate just calling, but I really want one, or both out of the hand. I definitely don't like multi way pots. After thinking for a minute I decide to raise.

I make it $21's all day.

Angie tanks...........counts up her chips, now I'm positive I'm ahead. She only has 28 behind her. After tanking for a bit, she shoves for $28 all day.

Now Mike tanks for a minute. I was expecting a fold, instead after thinking for just a few seconds, not to long, he shoves. He has 57 behind him. DAMN

Its 36 to win $124 (if I figured it out right).

I tank for about 2 minutes, figuring out how much money is in the pot. Thinking about the hand. I think Angie is playing a K, with a Jack or Queen. She really likes her top pairs.

Mike, before the shove I have no idea where he was at. After the shove, I'm guessing a set, but I can't be sure. I'm just hoping he doesn't have a suited Ace of Spades in his hand.

I decide that there is to much money in the pot for me to just let it go. I call. Nobody shows their cards.

The Turn brings me the spade for the Flush. I flip my cards over. I don't hear what Mike says, but I don't think it was nice. He shows his set of 4's. I believe Angie just mucked her cards before the River Card even came out.

My hand held up, and I won a pot that had about 160 in it. A pretty big pot for .25/.50 stakes, even by our standards.

Mike, Ryder, if I messed anything up just let me know and I will fix it.

Anyone: Feel free to rip my play apart, pre flop, flop, whatever.......

B

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
luckystraights
Regular
***
: 3161



« #1 : Nov 08, 2009 at 18:16 »

Awesome, congrats.
mike32
Regular
***
: 236



« #2 : Nov 08, 2009 at 18:47 »

The flop was K Q 4 w/ 2 spades, not sure of other suit but it was Q 4 of spades. I really did not mumble anything bad when the spade popped on the turn, and like you I was trying to avoid a multi-way pot. In retrospect I probably should have popped it after Angie bet post flop but I had you on a fold and I was sort of trying to disguise my hand. I had planned all along on pushing if you raised (after Angie bet) as I was confident I had the post flop lead. Anyway, nice hand brutha!
ryder such as
MTPL
Regular
***
: 1484



« #3 : Nov 08, 2009 at 19:25 »

i concur with there being a flop of k q 4. dd has a propensity for making big moves, so as i watched the hand unfold, im pretty certain angie had a/k or k/q. shes that tight and really, an unimgainative, abc poker player. if shes playing a pot this big she has at least top top, if not top two. i think her fold/muck on the turn flush rules out two pair, so im guessing a/k, as that leaves her drawing dead on the river. with mikes instashove, its either a big draw, or a freaking monster. i still dont know how dd cold calls a rock and a virtual unknown for most of his stack other than him making a crying call, due to the amount already in that pot. straight to the math, though, 36 to win 124 is about 3.4 to one, so you need 12 outs to justify the call. 9 spades plus your three 10's would be 12, but against a set, the 10's are useless. in the worse case scenario, your tens are dead to angies two pair, and mike is running down the a high flush. enjoy that three outer. i guess what im saying is....did you put the players on what you thought their hands were, and gambled, or did you put them on the hands you needed them to be on to justify your call?

Exalted Grand Marshall
MTPL since 2006

R-E-A-D-A-B-O-ohkay!!!!

it's not my fault.... my parents did a TON of drugs when I was conceived
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #4 : Nov 08, 2009 at 19:39 »

I'm not trying to "justify" anything. I posted it because there is obviously holes within the way I played the hand and this is the best way for me to learn.

I agree with everything you said about Angie. I wasn't worried about her. She drastically over plays her hands. Anything top pair and she is sold on it.

I agree about Mike as well. With him being an "Unknown" I wasn't sure where I was at. I knew I was behind, but hell, who wouldn't.

I didn't have him on a Flush Draw. I was as positive as you can be in Poker that if my flush draw hit, it would be the winner. I was also hoping that Mike was loser than what he was (he wasn't loose at all) and that if a King or a Ten hit then that would be a winner as well. I was wrong about that.

That being said, I had committed myself to the hand, there was a ton of money in the pot. I had already come back in once, I was willing to do it again if need be. I wasn't going away for 35 more dollars.

The flop was K Q 4 w/ 2 spades, not sure of other suit but it was Q 4 of spades. I really did not mumble anything bad when the spade popped on the turn, and like you I was trying to avoid a multi-way pot. In retrospect I probably should have popped it after Angie bet post flop but I had you on a fold and I was sort of trying to disguise my hand. I had planned all along on pushing if you raised (after Angie bet) as I was confident I had the post flop lead. Anyway, nice hand brutha!

If you raise Angie's $6 bet, and pending what the raise is, I would have definitely played it different. With your flop call I didn't have you on a set, that is for sure. You disguised it well. If you raise her 6 to say 15, then I probably just call. If you make it 20 or more, I probably go away.



The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #5 : Nov 08, 2009 at 19:42 »

Oh, and I don't mind big pot poker. Hell, I probably prefer it. I have lost my share of big pots. Honestly, I have won more than I lost.

I have handled it the same you did. Sometimes you just have to call it a night. I learned this lesson the hard way by buying back in (two thanksgivings ago). Shouldn't have done it, just pissed my money away. I control my "tilt" much better now  :o

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ryder such as
MTPL
Regular
***
: 1484



« #6 : Nov 08, 2009 at 22:24 »

I'm not trying to "justify" anything. I posted it because there is obviously holes within the way I played the hand and this is the best way for me to learn.

I agree with everything you said about Angie. I wasn't worried about her. She drastically over plays her hands. Anything top pair and she is sold on it.

I agree about Mike as well. With him being an "Unknown" I wasn't sure where I was at. I knew I was behind, but hell, who wouldn't.

I didn't have him on a Flush Draw. I was as positive as you can be in Poker that if my flush draw hit, it would be the winner. I was also hoping that Mike was loser than what he was (he wasn't loose at all) and that if a King or a Ten hit then that would be a winner as well. I was wrong about that.

That being said, I had committed myself to the hand, there was a ton of money in the pot. I had already come back in once, I was willing to do it again if need be. I wasn't going away for 35 more dollars.

The flop was K Q 4 w/ 2 spades, not sure of other suit but it was Q 4 of spades. I really did not mumble anything bad when the spade popped on the turn, and like you I was trying to avoid a multi-way pot. In retrospect I probably should have popped it after Angie bet post flop but I had you on a fold and I was sort of trying to disguise my hand. I had planned all along on pushing if you raised (after Angie bet) as I was confident I had the post flop lead. Anyway, nice hand brutha!

If you raise Angie's $6 bet, and pending what the raise is, I would have definitely played it different. With your flop call I didn't have you on a set, that is for sure. You disguised it well. If you raise her 6 to say 15, then I probably just call. If you make it 20 or more, I probably go away.



we discussed this hand ad nauseum, and in not accusing or berating. but if we discuss the hand, we have to ask if you made the call pretty certain your draw was good, is all. if your only justification for the call is "hey im already busted once, and theres a lot of money out there, so lets stick it in and hope we get lucky", theres not a lot we can glean from the hand. i dont hate the play. im envious of it to be honest, or at least the end result. and you know full well, theres plenty of gamble in my game too. but if we discuss it candidly, i can only give you the reasons why i would fold. im certain you dont fold this hand in this spot 85% of the time. its about as good a flop you can hope for. but sometimes we get married to our hands and forget that people are involved too, and im gonna say it.....im a big enough p### that when action goes bet, call, raise, all in, all in, its hard for me to call at those pot odds with top pair, crap kicker, and flush draw. especially with a stranger at the game that you really havent seen show down a hand. ever.

all that said, im finding it wasnt as bad a hand as i thought. we know your hand and mikes hand. the best hand i can put angie on that folds to your turned flush is....aces. i know, im certain she reraises you with that, so a/k it is. from there, with that flop, against two red 4's and a/k with no spade, angie is less than 2 percent, and dd is right around 33%. so you only need two to one to call the flop bet. you got trapped by a strong hand, but your reraise was enough that if it was only 36 you were facing to close theaction you were priced in. 7 of spades has angie drawing dead, hence her fold. of course, mike has the 20% redraw to the house, blah blah blah. so by the math, you played it correct, but if i am to dissent to the hand, its just that its hard even with the math for me to put it in against those two players. its just the difference between hands i can bet with, verses hands i can call with.

Exalted Grand Marshall
MTPL since 2006

R-E-A-D-A-B-O-ohkay!!!!

it's not my fault.... my parents did a TON of drugs when I was conceived
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #7 : Nov 09, 2009 at 04:43 »

That's way to much to read. I got to, "if I thought my darw was good". Yes, I thought it was good. I didn't think mike shoves on a draw, even a nut draw. I was hoping I had more outs than what I did, but I wasn't to hopeful about it.

I knew I was behind when making the call, and if I hadn't just put the21 in there is a good chance I fold.

I will read the rest tomorrow. To long of a reply. I need pictures!!!

The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mike32
Regular
***
: 236



« #8 : Nov 09, 2009 at 10:18 »

I think it was a pretty good call on your part at that point because you were getting a fair price. Let's face it, we are not playing high stakes poker, I know it is all relative but it only cost you $35 bux. I really did not mind the call because I was confident I was ahead and due to have one hold up, I guess I still am due!

On a different note have you ever considered a limit poker ring game. I feel that NL cash games can be tough to sustain long term due to hands like these. I have a feeling several players left with a bad taste in their mouth wishing they had just played a tourney. I happen to have the poker hook in my veins deep enough to keep coming back after all-in NL beats like this, I know they happen and accept it. However I feel that many recreational players are turned off by the sudden crushing losses that NL can bring. If this hand came up in a limit game we cap the betting post flop, and I probably fold when that spade comes on the turn, as does Angie. We both live to see more action. My personal preference is limit because I am not playing poker for a living, I try to win but the ultimate goal is recreation. I guess time will tell with your group if you announce another NL ring game, and I realize that many play NL and NL only. This is just a general observation by me.
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #9 : Nov 09, 2009 at 11:25 »

I think it was a pretty good call on your part at that point because you were getting a fair price. Let's face it, we are not playing high stakes poker, I know it is all relative but it only cost you $35 bux. I really did not mind the call because I was confident I was ahead and due to have one hold up, I guess I still am due!

On a different note have you ever considered a limit poker ring game. I feel that NL cash games can be tough to sustain long term due to hands like these. I have a feeling several players left with a bad taste in their mouth wishing they had just played a tourney. I happen to have the poker hook in my veins deep enough to keep coming back after all-in NL beats like this, I know they happen and accept it. However I feel that many recreational players are turned off by the sudden crushing losses that NL can bring. If this hand came up in a limit game we cap the betting post flop, and I probably fold when that spade comes on the turn, as does Angie. We both live to see more action. My personal preference is limit because I am not playing poker for a living, I try to win but the ultimate goal is recreation. I guess time will tell with your group if you announce another NL ring game, and I realize that many play NL and NL only. This is just a general observation by me.

Your right to a point. This wasn't the "normal" group that gets together for cash games. Most were a little bit out of their elements SAT. night. I'm friends with all, and work with a couple of them. They knew what to expect. I have been trying to help them over the last few weeks by explaining the differences of cash, tourney ect.... 

I'm personally not a "limit" poker guy. In my very small limit poker experience I would see the betting capped at every round in that situation because its well, limit.

I only host "Cash Games" a few times a year. Mostly its 20-40 tourney's.

B

Oh, and Angie doesn't fold no matter what


The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
luckystraights
Regular
***
: 3161



« #10 : Nov 09, 2009 at 14:19 »

I have a feeling several players left with a bad taste in their mouth wishing they had just played a tourney.

That doesn't make sense to me. If you get stacked in a cash game you loose, if u get stacked in a tourney you loose, if the cash game is for a $50 stack u loose $50, if the tourney BI is for $50 you loose $50, why would it being a tourney change anything.

mike32
Regular
***
: 236



« #11 : Nov 09, 2009 at 15:58 »

Hey Lucky - I suppose the main difference is people frequently lose say 50 to 100 bux in an hour (or less) in a cash game, but frequently play for 3 or 4 hours on $20 in a tourney. In a standard tourney you know your max loss up front, in a cash game the sky is the limit. By the the time I got to the game about 2 hours late, at least two people had already busted out for various amounts. One more did shortly after I arrived. I am not anti-cash game or anything, but this is a major difference.

Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #12 : Nov 09, 2009 at 16:43 »

Hey Lucky - I suppose the main difference is people frequently lose say 50 to 100 bux in an hour (or less) in a cash game, but frequently play for 3 or 4 hours on $20 in a tourney. In a standard tourney you know your max loss up front, in a cash game the sky is the limit. By the the time I got to the game about 2 hours late, at least two people had already busted out for various amounts. One more did shortly after I arrived. I am not anti-cash game or anything, but this is a major difference.



3 to 4 hours in a tourney...........you obviously haven't played with me...........lol


The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Milo
Regular
***
: 1862


Money is bisexual


« #13 : Nov 09, 2009 at 22:54 »

Call me crazy, DD, but I like the way you played the hand, with the proviso that (based on your read of Angie) the only player to worry about was Mike.  Ignore Angie for the moment (but not her $$$), and you have top pair with the 2nd nut flush draw.  I think you do not dwell overlong on whether Mike has the nut flush draw, because what kind of Ace/x combo makes sense for him in this situation, based on the action?  I might have flat called the $6.00 for the same reasons Mike did, and see what the turn brings but, once you put that raise in, I'm not abandoning that kind of pot, either.

Hee-Haw.

TANSTAAFL
Detroitdad
MTPL
Regular
***
: 13474



« #14 : Nov 10, 2009 at 09:03 »

Call me crazy, DD, but I like the way you played the hand, with the proviso that (based on your read of Angie) the only player to worry about was Mike.  Ignore Angie for the moment (but not her $$$), and you have top pair with the 2nd nut flush draw.  I think you do not dwell overlong on whether Mike has the nut flush draw, because what kind of Ace/x combo makes sense for him in this situation, based on the action?  I might have flat called the $6.00 for the same reasons Mike did, and see what the turn brings but, once you put that raise in, I'm not abandoning that kind of pot, either.

Hee-Haw.

I'm happy with the way I played it. My biggest decision was to just call the 6, or raise it up, and if I raise it up, what do I raise it to. I tend to lean towards the more aggressive play. I like to apply pressure. Just calling a raise on the flop in a multi way pot wasn't what I wanted to do.

As you said, once that 21 went into the pot. I wasn't going away.

The only way I fold this, is if I just call the 6, and miss the flush on the turn. I would have called a small bet on the turn to try and river my flush, but I wouldn't call anything crazy.


The Lions will be the death of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
demon604
Regular
***
: 1908



« #15 : Nov 10, 2009 at 15:59 »

You were invested in the pot, and priced in for the draw with two cards to come.  I make this same play.

Quote from: Midnight Rose

I find a man who admits that he can't take the hard stuff, is sexy as all hell.
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