Grinder vs Scotty Nguyen Ruling....

[Bawlmer_Flats]

Anyone catch the WPT last night...the Tunica, Mississippi event?

If not, there was a significant ruling by the tournament director that I thought was questionable in the least, if not downright wrong...

Mike "The Grinder" Mizrachi and Scotty Nguyen were in a hand where Scotty had pocket fours and Mike called Scotty's pre-flop raise with 2-3o.  After both players checked the flop, the turn was a 4, giving Scotty a set, which he checked to Mike, who also checked.  The ace on the river gave Mike the nuts with a two fill straight of A-2-3-4-5. (please correct me if the betting sequence is wrong from my memory....but the board and hands are correct)

After checks on both the flop and turn, Mike now led out with a 400,000 bet. Scotty, after thinking, clearly announed "I raise".  However, before Scotty had either verbally declared the raise amount or pushed raising chips towards the pot, Mike Mizrachi turned over his hole cards as he mistakingly thought Scotty had called the bet, not raised.

The tournament director was called to the table and he mentioned that he clearly heard Scotty say, I raise, but since Mike had turned over his hole cards that cancelled out the verbal raise and constituted a call on Scotty's part. So, Scotty had to call the $400,000 and lost the hand.

Now, while Mike made an embarrassing mistake, I agree with Mike Sexton in that Scotty should have at least been required to make a minimum raise to $800,000 ($400,000 raise). My understanding of poker rules is that Verbal Declarations Are Binding and, because Scotty made the verbal declaration before Mike turned over his hole cards, the tournament director should have made Scotty make the minimum raise.

This is a pretty big error, in my opinion.  Now, Mike probably lost a lot of chips by showing his hole cards because Scotty was likely to raise for a lot more than the minimum raise.  Still, Scotty's verbal declaration should have been the decision maker and a minimum raise should have been enforced.  Robert's Rules should be updated to account for these situations. Am I missing something here--Flats

[Jambine]

This is a pretty big error, in my opinion.  Now, Mike probably lost a lot of chips by showing his hole cards because Scotty was likely to raise for a lot more than the minimum raise.  Still, Scotty's verbal declaration should have been the decision maker and a minimum raise should have been enforced.  Robert's Rules should be updated to account for these situations. Am I missing something here--Flats

I agree.  The TD made two errors in that ruling.  Verbal declarations are binding and Scotty should have been forced to make the minimum raise.  And Mizrachi should have been given a 10 minute penalty for revealing his cards.

No need to update the rules.  Robert’s already addresses this issue, just need to enforce the rules.  Can’t wait for Gobbs to chime in on this.  He probably lost sleep over this one 

[Bawlmer_Flats]

Now the interesting thought is what would have happened had not the two biggest "stars" of the table been involved in the hand.

Maybe it is sort of like the NBA....the big stars get an extra step (or two) to make that fancy shot.

[christessmer]

yeah, i could not believe that the TD just let that one slide.  i mean, what was he thinking??  but like mike sexton said, different casinos have different rules.

[bend3519]

I agree that Scotty should have been forced to raise, and after seeing Mike's cards I sure it just would have been a min. raise, However I don't necessarily think Mike should have gotten a time penalty.  I would have ruled that it was penalty enough for him since the only one he hurt by showing his hand was himself (helped Scotty, I don't know how much he was thinking about raising, but I'd be surprised if he was just thinking about raising the minimun.  Just goes to show you that even the pros get a little excited at times and make mistakes, though not as often as your average player, but still everyone screws up from time to time.

[j_klep]

I was watching, and before the TD ruled, I thought it was a no-brainer, Nguyen  announced a raise, and would therefore would be force to raise the minimum amount in that situation.

I was shocked at the TD's ruling and was glad when Sexton questioned the ruling.

As Jambine stated, Robert's Rules already accounts for this, no need to change any rules unless that casino has their own rules that are different from "standard".

Nguyen was lucky, first that Mizrachi turned over his cards.  Nguyen would have probably been all in and lost.  Then the TD saved Nguyen another 400,000 by making what I perceived as a poor decision.

As for giving Mizrachi a time penalty, that depends on casino rules.  If the rule says he should get a time penalty because he turned over his cards, the rule should be enforced consistantly, regardless of him losing those potential chips.

This ruling had a huge impact on the game, affecting all the players at the table.  Nguyen should have been crippled.  Despite my hindsight in knowing who won, I want to any player out of the game when I am playing, but especially him.  Nguyen probably would have been out of the game a lot sooner.

It was a very entertaining show.

[Gobbs]

OK...Jambine is about to get his wish...here I am to chime in.

There is one additional detail that nobody picked up on yet.  Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls."  She said it very clearly and distinctly.  My understanding is that she has no authority and is simply there to do commentary since there is a tournament director on the floor.  Her announcement should have no bearing on the call vs. raise decision, but it does have a bearing on whether or not the Grinder should receive a penalty.

- Regarding the call vs. raise decision, the TD was dead wrong.  I would have ruled that Scotty is forced to raise.  He may raise any amount he wishes, but he has to raise.  I think I also would have ruled that the Grinder's cards have to stay exposed to make sure Scotty did see them correctly.  Otherwise, you'd be allowing the Grinder to work an angle where he shows his cards but makes it appear as though he had nothing by not giving a real good look.  So, obviously, Scotty would have raised the minimum.

- Regarding a possible penatly, I do not disagree with the TD for not issuing one.  While it would have been within his authority, I don't think it was warranted here.  Obviously, it was a misunderstanding and not an angle being worked, and the fact that Linda Johnson announced a call makes it even more understandable as to why he exposed his cards.  I would have given him a very light and private warning that he needs to be careful, but I wouldn't have done it publicly to embarrass him anymore than he already was.

Gobbs

[Buzzerbeater]

I might have to go back and watch it again, but I thought I heard Linda Johnston say, "Scotty calls," after he said raise.

[jrhood9]

Did anyone catch the dealer error on the 1st hand?  When dealing the 2nd down cards to the players, Raul Paez's 2nd card was flipped up when it it the camera pod.  The dealer left the card and continued the rest of the deal.  She then gave Paez the top card off the deck once the dealing was complete.  Should she not have shuffled the deck and continued dealing with Paez?

[RyGuy]

Did anyone catch the dealer error on the 1st hand?  When dealing the 2nd down cards to the players, Raul Paez's 2nd card was flipped up when it it the camera pod.  The dealer left the card and continued the rest of the deal.  She then gave Paez the top card off the deck once the dealing was complete.  Should she not have shuffled the deck and continued dealing with Paez?

No.  She handled it correctly in terms of dealing the down cards.  Did you notice whether she used the exposed card as the first burn (before the flop)?

[Z_Stingray]

OK...Jambine is about to get his wish...here I am to chime in.

There is one additional detail that nobody picked up on yet.  Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls." 

I heard that too.  In a way, I can see how The Grinder thought it was OK to turn over his cards.  Linda actually said "Scotty's gonna make the call".  I don't know how the commentators factor into the play of the game.  Ultimately, each player is expected to know what is going on in the game - each hand.  So Linda just confused Michael.  If I were him I would have had a comment for Linda.  "Shut the F*** UP!"

As for the ruling, I think what happened was fair enough.  None of the players objected.  Michael could have pushed the issue to get Scotty's minimum raise added to the pot.  But, I think he was so embarassed that he just wanted to drag his chips in, deal the next hand, and move on.  After all, Michael was the one that sufferred from his own mistake.  In a sense he penalized himself.

Z_Stingray

[j_klep]

Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls."  She said it very clearly and distinctly.

My selective memory tells me she said he would raise.  Maybe I just didn't hear it correctly because I wasn't focused on her.  And other folks have said she said he calls as well.  But I still think you people are wrong.  If she did say that "Scotty calls", then the error was hers and she deserves some sort of vengence from Mike.  I hope Mike is a forgiving kind of guy, because we all make mistakes.  Anyone tape this and care to confirm?

I do think the TD's mistake was less forgivable than Linda's.  She was reacting.  The TD had time to think.

[Lime Lounger]

There is one additional detail that nobody picked up on yet.  Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls."  She said it very clearly and distinctly.

I was wondering if someone was going to catch this. I think this is how the whole problem came about. If she hadn't said this I don't think Grinder would have shown his cards.

BTW, I watched it back and she definitely said, "Scotty calls."

[Gobbs]

Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls."  She said it very clearly and distinctly.

My selective memory tells me she said he would raise.  Maybe I just didn't hear it correctly because I wasn't focused on her.  And other folks have said she said he calls as well.  But I still think you people are wrong.  If she did say that "Scotty calls", then the error was hers and she deserves some sort of vengence from Mike.  I hope Mike is a forgiving kind of guy, because we all make mistakes.  Anyone tape this and care to confirm?

I do think the TD's mistake was less forgivable than Linda's.  She was reacting.  The TD had time to think.

I tivo and archive them all.  She very clearly said "Scotty makes the call for 170."

To the best of my knowledge, she's simply an announcer and that's it.  The only people of authority are the dealers and the TD.  So, he shouldn't have listened to Linda Johnson, although I can see why he did.

Had the dealer said, Scotty makes the call and the Grinder turned over his cards, I'd agree with the TD's ruling, but since it was the dealer, bad call on the TD's part.

Gobbs

[jrhood9]

Did anyone catch the dealer error on the 1st hand?  When dealing the 2nd down cards to the players, Raul Paez's 2nd card was flipped up when it it the camera pod.  The dealer left the card and continued the rest of the deal.  She then gave Paez the top card off the deck once the dealing was complete.  Should she not have shuffled the deck and continued dealing with Paez?

No.  She handled it correctly in terms of dealing the down cards.  Did you notice whether she used the exposed card as the first burn (before the flop)?

No, she did not use it as the burn card.  She placed it on the bottom of the deck.

[Gobbs]

Did anyone catch the dealer error on the 1st hand?  When dealing the 2nd down cards to the players, Raul Paez's 2nd card was flipped up when it it the camera pod.  The dealer left the card and continued the rest of the deal.  She then gave Paez the top card off the deck once the dealing was complete.  Should she not have shuffled the deck and continued dealing with Paez?

No.  She handled it correctly in terms of dealing the down cards.  Did you notice whether she used the exposed card as the first burn (before the flop)?

No, she did not use it as the burn card.  She placed it on the bottom of the deck.

The camera cuts to a different scene before you can tell what she did with it.

When the card turned over, she paused her deal, placed her right hand on the felt to note that she flipped a card, continued the deal to the finish, and then went back to Paez.  She dealt him another card and slid the exposed card back toward herself.  At that point, the camera cut to a closeup of Paez before she even got the card off the felt.

Later, before the flop, you do see a scene with the deck in the dealer's hand.  The card is face down.  So, she may have put the card on top face down, or she may have done something else.

By the way, I believe the exposed card was a red eight.  Since Scotty folded the eight of hearts, I'm guessing it was the eight of diamonds.

Gobbs

[Bawlmer_Flats]

Thanks for the info Gobbs....a good update

[Midnight Rose]

On top of everything else that went wrong with this game, I was particularly galled by the TD admitting his attention was elsewhere.  I have to play back the TiVo, but I swear he said he was talking to someone on the rail, yet he "clearly heard Scotty say 'raise'".  Yarite, when the first thing the TD said when he came to the table was, basically, "wha' happen?'.

Everyone involved with running this episode should be embarrassed.

[austin5string]

.. was, basically, "wha' happen?'.

Mighty Wind fan, or simply coincidence?

[Gobbs]

On top of everything else that went wrong with this game, I was particularly galled by the TD admitting his attention was elsewhere.  I have to play back the TiVo, but I swear he said he was talking to someone on the rail, yet he "clearly heard Scotty say 'raise'".  Yarite, when the first thing the TD said when he came to the table was, basically, "wha' happen?'.

Everyone involved with running this episode should be embarrassed.

I thought he said something to the effect of not paying attention, too, but I think he simply asked what happened to get all sides.  I'd check the tivo, but I'm watching something on delay right now.  I'll update later with what he actually said.

Gobbs

[Midnight Rose]

.. was, basically, "wha' happen?'.

Mighty Wind fan, or simply coincidence?

I'm more partial to Best In Show, but you betcha.

[Midnight Rose]

I just rewatched the whole sequence.  The cards, board, and betting sequence first listed weren't exactly right.  Here's what went down:

1) After the table folded around, Scotty came into the hand with 4d4s, and Grinder went with his 6d5c;

2) Flop comes out 10sKs7d; Scotty checked, and to Mike Sexton's surprise ("he's betting with nothing!"), Grinder bets out at it.  Scotty, sensing Grinder is trying to pull a fast one, remarks that "if I just call, you gonna check on the turn" (not an exact quote, but close), and then calls;

3) Turn comes out 4c, giving Scotty trips.  Scotty makes the critical error of checking, but having said what he said previously, Grinder makes a comment about Scotty's previous comment, and also checks;

4) River comes 3h, Sexton gets excited about Grinder having gotten the nuts, and Scotty checks again.  Grinder says that nope, he's not checking, and bets $170K, making the pot over $300K. 

Scotty waits a few seconds, looks at the board, and says "I can't believe I just call you with this hand baby, I should raise you."  Scotty is mumbling here a bit, then says ok, I raise, mumbling again.

5) Sexton (in post-production, of course), says "Scotty's making the call"; Vince says "No, he's gonna raise"; then Linda (announcing live) repeats Sexton's error that Scotty is making the call as Scotty is putting out his calling chips, but has more chips in his hand - and right around the same time, Grinder flips his cards over;

6) In quick succession, Dealer says "He said 'raise'", and Grinder tries to cover his cards, but of course Scotty has seen them, and everybody starts looking as dumb as they come;

7) Sexton and Vince chatter on, Linda announces that the TD is coming over to straighten things out [fire that TD yesterday, I say]; Dealer starts explaining the sequence, TD asks "So what happened?", then makes the dumbest series of comments that a paid professional TD could ever make, ending with a completely against-the-rules decision to let Scotty just call, especially since the decision goes against every comment he just made.

8. Rose turns off the TiVo in disgust, not wanting to watch another minute of that poorly-run game.

[Buzzerbeater]

Live poker is rigged!

[Hendu3270]

I agree that Scotty should have been forced to make a minimum raise. I was glad to see Scotty take the win in that one. Nothing against the Grinder, but I was glad Scotty finally got his WPT win.

[Eazalee]

What if Scotty was forced to raise at least the minimum but saw Mike's cards and wanted to bluff like he had Mike's hand beat and raised all-in.  That would be an interesting bluff.

[Z_Stingray]

It would have been a easy call for the Grinder since he had the nuts.  It would have also been the worst bluff in history on Scotty's part.  Bluff against the nuts when you are looking at it - on national TV even.

Z_Stingray

[j_klep]

It would have been a easy call for the Grinder since he had the nuts.  It would have also been the worst bluff in history on Scotty's part.  Bluff against the nuts when you are looking at it - on national TV even.

That would not have been a bluff.  Scotty had a very good hand with a set of fours.  Unless Grinder had a pocket pair that matched the board for his own higher set, and he didn't play like he did, there was only one other hand combination that could beat it.  Grinder had it.  It would have been a good play at the wrong time.

[austin5string]

It would have been a easy call for the Grinder since he had the nuts.  It would have also been the worst bluff in history on Scotty's part.  Bluff against the nuts when you are looking at it - on national TV even.

That would not have been a bluff.  Scotty had a very good hand with a set of fours.  Unless Grinder had a pocket pair that matched the board for his own higher set, and he didn't play like he did, there was only one other hand combination that could beat it.  Grinder had it.  It would have been a good play at the wrong time.

I think he meant if Scotty saw Grinder's cards and THEN tried to bluff.  Which wouldn't have been possible, since Grinder had the nuts.

[Buzzerbeater]

I think he meant after Scotty saw Miz' cards.

[j_klep]

I see that now, but as Austin said, Grinder had the nuts, couldn't be beat.  There was no way he could possibly fold.  And there is no way Scotty could even hope Grinder would fold to a raise.  Even with two jokers (they use jokers don't they?, or maybe the dealer called deuces wild before the deal) in his hand, and from Grinder's perspective the most Scotty could possibly have is a tie.  Grinder and Scotty are not donkeys at one of our home games. 

[Gobbs]

I see that now, but as Austin said, Grinder had the nuts, couldn't be beat.  There was no way he could possibly fold.  And there is no way Scotty could even hope Grinder would fold to a raise.  Even with two jokers (they use jokers don't they?, or maybe the dealer called deuces wild before the deal) in his hand, and from Grinder's perspective the most Scotty could possibly have is a tie.  Grinder and Scotty are not donkeys at one of our home games. 

You have donkeys at your home games?

Gobbs

[Sambo]

maybe, instead of giving grinder a penalty for showing his cards and forcing scotty to raise because he said raise, the TD just said its a wash.  scotty had already put in chips to cover the bet and was in the process of getting out chips to raise with when it happened.  so instead of giving money to grinder that he would lose while hes on a penalty he just said scotty calls and the pot is awarded to grinder and the play moves on.  doesnt seem fair but its the only rational reason i can see for them not forcing scotty to raise.

[j_klep]

You have donkeys at your home games?

Donkeys, fish, maybe a shark, all kinds of animals.  My daughter loves animals but doesn't realize that any time we play poker, there is a whole zoo at our house.

[wannaBpro]

I know I'm crazy late on this, but I just ran across this thread and I have a totally different opinion on the matter.  I completly agree with everyone about how Scotty should have been forced to make the min. raise, but my poker buddy and I came to the conclusion that Grinder showed his cards early on purpose to save Scotty from being crippled.  Sort of a "hey bro, don't knock yourself out of contention because I rivered a straight" kinda thing.  I mean Mizrachi and Scotty are friends and Scotty hasn't been anywhere near as on fire as the Grinder has the last couple of years.  I know it sounds crazy, but just our opinion.  I rewinded that part a couple of times that night (thanks tivo ) and it seemed pretty hard to believe that Grinder didn't hear Scotty declare a raise.  Call me crazy, but that's our crackpot theory 

[Buzzerbeater]

I know I'm crazy late on this, but I just ran across this thread and I have a totally different opinion on the matter.  I completly agree with everyone about how Scotty should have been forced to make the min. raise, but my poker buddy and I came to the conclusion that Grinder showed his cards early on purpose to save Scotty from being crippled.  Sort of a "hey bro, don't knock yourself out of contention because I rivered a straight" kinda thing.  I mean Mizrachi and Scotty are friends and Scotty hasn't been anywhere near as on fire as the Grinder has the last couple of years.  I know it sounds crazy, but just our opinion.  I rewinded that part a couple of times that night (thanks tivo ) and it seemed pretty hard to believe that Grinder didn't hear Scotty declare a raise.  Call me crazy, but that's our crackpot theory 

If that were true, then Mizrachi is a far worse poker player than I thought possible.  He can be reckless at times, but that would just be stupid.  Scotty was the best player at that table and leaving him around would just be stupid.

[austin5string]

Call me crazy, but that's our crackpot theory 

You're crazy.

Not even a slight chance that happened.  Zero.

[wannaBpro]

So you're saying that my theory has absolutely no merit whatsoever, but a seasoned pro, arguably 1 of the top 5 tournament players in the world right now, makes a rookie mistake during a WPT final table.  A mistake that people in this thread would probably never make in a home game, but someone with the reputation as being a "machine" is going to make when his concentration has to be extremly high.  If you can't concentrate when playing for a million + then how do you get to the level of Mizrachi?  I'm not saying my theory is correct, but damn, it's at least possible, and who decides that Scotty is better than Mizrachi?  Because he won the main event when the fields were like 100 people.  Don't get me wrong, I think they're both excellent players and very entertaining to watch, but it's all subjective anyway.  Didn't mean to throw some Da Vinci Codeness into your belief system folks, it's just conversation.

[austin5string]

So you're saying that my theory has absolutely no merit whatsoever, but a seasoned pro, arguably 1 of the top 5 tournament players in the world right now, makes a rookie mistake during a WPT final table.  A mistake that people in this thread would probably never make in a home game, but someone with the reputation as being a "machine" is going to make when his concentration has to be extremly high.  If you can't concentrate when playing for a million + then how do you get to the level of Mizrachi?  I'm not saying my theory is correct, but damn, it's at least possible, and who decides that Scotty is better than Mizrachi?  Because he won the main event when the fields were like 100 people.  Don't get me wrong, I think they're both excellent players and very entertaining to watch, but it's all subjective anyway.  Didn't mean to throw some Da Vinci Codeness into your belief system folks, it's just conversation.

Okay, I'll give you a 1 in a billion chance of it happening.  But copying from Gobb's post, the important factor is "There is one additional detail that nobody picked up on yet.  Linda Johnson stated "Scotty calls."  She said it very clearly and distinctly."

Grinder didn't so much make a rookie mistake as Linda f'd up bigtime.  He acted on her statement.

Also, if he's a "machine" with such concentration, best tourney player, playing for a million bucks, etc., etc., you think there's a snowball's chance in hell he's going to try and minimize the damage he does to someone's chipstack?

[Gobbs]

So you're saying that my theory has absolutely no merit whatsoever, but a seasoned pro, arguably 1 of the top 5 tournament players in the world right now, makes a rookie mistake during a WPT final table.  A mistake that people in this thread would probably never make in a home game, but someone with the reputation as being a "machine" is going to make when his concentration has to be extremly high.  If you can't concentrate when playing for a million + then how do you get to the level of Mizrachi?  I'm not saying my theory is correct, but damn, it's at least possible, and who decides that Scotty is better than Mizrachi?  Because he won the main event when the fields were like 100 people.  Don't get me wrong, I think they're both excellent players and very entertaining to watch, but it's all subjective anyway.  Didn't mean to throw some Da Vinci Codeness into your belief system folks, it's just conversation.

John's too nice.  I say 1:1,000,000,000,000,000 chance because of all the things John said.  Plus, he was visibly embarrassed about it.

Gobbs

[Diamond Don]

Did anyone catch the dealer error on the 1st hand?  When dealing the 2nd down cards to the players, Raul Paez's 2nd card was flipped up when it it the camera pod.  The dealer left the card and continued the rest of the deal.  She then gave Paez the top card off the deck once the dealing was complete.  Should she not have shuffled the deck and continued dealing with Paez?

That was correct to do it that way.