Waiting List

[TC]

Well we are on upside of rising players lately.  In the past the most we have ever had was 30.  It wasn't a problem because we had 4 tables.

Due to space ( a common problem)  We are down to 3 tables.  The max I like to have on any table is 9. 

Two weeks ago we had 27. People.  My personal max with my setup.

My question is:  How do you guys handle it when you have more players than room?  Do you guys have a waiting list?

We also run a "dead stack" at the beginning for late players for 3 rounds.

Scenario #1: If #31 comes in (on time) and has to wait.  Does he sit down with a full stack or is he treated like a late player and match the dead stack chips.


Scenario #2: If #31 comes late and has to waiting for a seat, he waits for a seat to open and then matches the dead stack even if its a whole blind level.  Is this fair?


I would like to have a ready answer for the group so I can announce how we will handle this problem.

I do appreciate any and all comments or suggestions. 

Take care and God bless
TC

[Wedge Rock]

We also have space issues of two tables -- 20 max.

We have 20 "regulars" who are all guaranteed a seat.  They are generally the 20 guys who, over the seasons, have been the most consistent in terms of playing.  A couple weeks before a tournament, we check with the regulars and see if anyone can't make it.  If there's an open seat, an email goes out to the priority subs (a couple of guys who either would like to be a regular or who play sub frequently enough that they have accumulated enough points to possibly place them in line for a post-season tournament -- or both).  After going through those couple of priority subs, if there are still open seats, we open it up to the general sub list.  From there, its first come, first served.

We have a NC/NS and late cancellation policy (negative last place points if you cancel within 24 hours of the tournament -- regardless of whether a sub is found -- or if you don't show at all).  We had a problem in the past, but particularly with one player (who is not playing regularly anymore).  Since we've instituted the penalty, there's been no NC/NS issue, and very infrequent last minute cancellations.  One guy was thrown a surprise 40th birthday party by his wife and she didn't know how to contact us about cancelling his seat...  We applied the penalty (reluctantly), but he took it in stride.

Also, for late shows, your seat is reserved through the first break (80 minutes) and you are blinded off.  If you don't show during that time, your chips are removed and we play with one less player (and you are penalized for NC/NS).  If you know you are going to be late, however, you can prepay (or have someone else pay for you) and your chips will stay on the table until you arrive. 

We don't have a waiting list for players to sit in for NC/NS players tho.  To me, a system that contemplates NC/NS almost approves on NC/NS.  We want to discourage NC/NS, hence the penalty.  We also reserve the right to boot you from the list for continued NC/NS.  In our league, we got rid of one bad apple and it hasn't been a problem since then.

[Jaywa]

I'd say you'd have to know before the game how many open seats you have. Letting someone (#31) in your example sit around hoping for a seat isn't how I'd like to spend my evening, but depending on circumstances, he/she should have reserved a seat earlier. Or at least they will in the future.

For my game I also send out an invite about a month out (We play a monthly tourney for our league) and I send a reminder about once a week. Once I have a pretty good count I'll announce it. I've only had one time where I didn't think I'd be able to accomodate a player but I simply let him know he was on a waiting list.

As for late players or no shows we have a rule that your chips are blinded out until the rebuy period ends (100 minutes), if you aren't there to play them they are removed from play, unless you paid in advance. If you paid in advance they are still blinded until you show up. I've yet to deal with a NC/NS as Wedge describes but I think I would just remove the chips from play and go on without them, I wouldn't allow that player to accumulate league points for that game either. Unless of course an emergency kept them from contacting me or showing up.

[TC]

I like the idea of having a "reserved list".  We do have a group of regulars but sometimes someone will call and say "hey my cousin is in town can he come play".  I always say yes.  I let them know right away that not all of his buyin is going to the nightly pot (TOC takeout and points takeout).  They have never refused.  I figure more money for us at the end.

The only time I turn people down is if its our tournament of champions.  They have to qualify for that. 

I don't like to turn anyone away.  Plus it does make the weekly pot very big and inticing. 

We have a few that will pre-pay for their seat. 

How does this sound:  I will cap seating (paid seats) at 30.  Give #31 the option of waiting for someone to bust out and then match the dead stack.

I think that would give all the people incentive to come early.

 

[Dr. Neau]

This is my league policy:

In the event of a full house, priority is given based on how many tournaments you have played that season.  In the case of a tie for criteria #1, then it goes by league points.

Notice I value participation over success.

[TC]

I like that answer.  If they come in at the same time.  I agree, participation is key.

That is interesting I will definitely be including that or some derivitive of it.

[Dr. Neau]

I like that answer.  If they come in at the same time.  I agree, participation is key.

That is interesting I will definitely be including that or some derivitive of it.

I use evite...so this is more about who gets a chance to respond to the evite first.

[Tex Rex]

We have a maximum of 21 players at 2 tables.  If a reserve shows up and the game is full, the only way they will play is if someone busts out within the first two rounds (20 min each).

Players must reserve their seats in advance via email, or by signing up on the website, and once the tournament is full, they go on the reserve list in the order they signed up.  In recent months, we've always had at least one person on the reserve list.  While we do theoretically allow guests, we have a small annual membership fee.  Membership fees pay for awards, cards, website, and other expenses related to having a league.  Members will get in before guests, though if a guest signs up first, the guest has the option of paying the membership fee.  Members receive 67% more starting chips than guests, so our system really encourages guests to join, even if that is the only game they would attend.  The membership fee is in direct proportion to the extra chips they get that night, and once paid, they get the additional chips for the rest of the year.  Part of the buy-in goes toward the year-end tournament that is open to all members.

Ours is a league.  We have 32 members, but 42 have played this year.  We have no penalty for not showing unless you reserved, didn't show, another member didn't come but was competing for an award, and membership thinks it's unfair.  The penalty is undetermined, but it hasn't come up yet.  With reserve players, last minute no-shows are just replaced.

Players who don't come lose out on participation points, and on the chance to improve their standing by placing in the money.

When a player shows up, since we don't take money in advance, they pay and are given a full stack, even if they are late.  They immediately go into the big blind at their assigned table.  I can't honestly remember if we have ever had a player show up late and win.  If we ever have, it hasn't happened in years.  So while I know some don't like that, I can't get anyone to admit they would show up late because they think such a system would give them an advantage.

That's how we do it.  Our players like it.

[Martini]

...
We have no penalty for not showing unless you reserved, didn't show, another member didn't come but was competing for an award, and membership thinks it's unfair.  The penalty is undetermined, but it hasn't come up yet.
...

Having the penalty undetermined seems like a recipe for controversy if and when the situation comes up.

[Dr. Neau]

Yeah.  Our policy was this:

If you said you were coming and didn't show to a tournament where there was a waiting list, you sat out the next tournament.

[Tex Rex]

Martini and Dr. Neau, I don't disagree with either of you.  The challenge is that it hasn't come up, so it's hard for us to tell what the impact might be.  Our prizes for awards are so small that it isn't the main reason people play.  In fact, one could decide they don't care one whit about any of the prizes, come and play, and still have a great time.  The payouts are still worth playing for.

I'd like to hear ideas about how to deal with it.  This is the last month of the first season.  The plan is to try to establish rules for things like that in January.  We thought it would be easier to figure that out when we got close to the end of the year and a no-show would actually affect standings.  The way things are though, a no-show only hurts themselves.  The players who are competing for awards are all registered.  Thus, I have no experience in a situation where it makes sense for a player to register but not show.

We do have people not show, but the no-show no-notice is rare.  The first one we never heard from the player again.  The only other one we had this year was due to death in the family.  In that case, someone on the reserve list played instead.  The player who didn't play in that case, isn't really in the running for an award.

I had a player who is competing for an award miss a game at the last minute (actually a few hours).  He called though, and someone on the reserve list took his place.  That missing game may ultimately keep him from winning an award because he can't make up the points for not being there.

We've had others who have canceled even within the last hour, but either a reserve took their place, or we didn't have a reserve list.  The effect on standings is it only hurt the person who didn't show.

Despite all of that, I'd like to have ideas to deal with the potential problem.  So how do people do that?

[Martini]

The person is not only hurting himself though. If someone takes up a seat and someone else doesn't attend because the event was full then the player no showing hurts the player who wanted to play but couldn't get a reserved seat.

It doesn't matter how much people do or do not care about the prizes, it's just plain rude to reserve a spot and not let the host (and other players who want in to the game) know that you aren't going to make it. With the amount of technology in most people's pockets it is pretty inexcusable to not call, text, or email if you can't make the game.

As for what the penalty should be, there are many options but I would consider the fact that no showing could potentially cost another player a 1st place finish if they didn't show up due to the seats all being claimed. For that reason I could see justification in deducting the no-show's highest finish at the end of the season. That penalty loses teeth if the no-show never finishes very high though. Dr. Neau's penalty of missing the next game would address that but that approach doesn't affect someone who couldn't make the next game anyway. Or, you could assess a monetary fine which I think would be the easiest to administer.

[Jaywa]

I will cap seating (paid seats) at 30.  Give #31 the option of waiting for someone to bust out and then match the dead stack.

The only thing I see wrong with this is that by the time someone busts out the amount #31 gets in chips may be woefully behind the table average at that time. Not fun coming into a game with say T10k and the average stack at that time is like T18k.

[TC]

As far as reserved seating, we have a few that will pay in advance (if they make the money, they will give me their buyin for next week). 

We have players that are not computer savy but just love to play poker and the league.

It's basically first come, first serve for seating.  I encourage people to come early.  So that they are here and ready to go when I'm getting ready to start the tournament.  I used to have people coming in at the last minute to buyin.  I would have to take their money and their name to the list while the others are watiing for me to start the tournament.

If we never hit 30 people, it won't hurt my feelings.  However, I would like to have a solid plan if/when it happens (it won't make me look like I don't know what Im doing while I sit there trying to figure stuff out).

The easier it flows looks better as a TD.

I really do appreciate all the feedback I'm getting with this thread.

Thanks again guys

[Tex Rex]

Martini, I agree that it is possible for a no-show no-notice to hurt other players.  However, it hasn't happened to us (perhaps I should add "yet").  Since I do take a reserve list, a player who is on the reserve list knows that last minute changes occur, and if they are on the reserve list but decide not to come, that's really their own fault.  The last few days before a tournament, I update every at least daily on their status.  We did have the top guy on the reserve list make other plans when it kept getting close and nothing had happened.  Then it turned out someone did cancel, but by that time, he already had plans.  The next person on the reserve list played.  The player who could have played chose something else instead.  I don't blame him, but ultimately he hurt himself.  He was not in the running for an award though.  I also agree that to not notify of changes is rude, though when it's a death in the family, it's hard to really get upset about that. 

Do others really have no-shows no-notices often?  This year, in 219 players in tournaments, I've had only 2.  It's not a huge problem.  Since arguably one dropped out, it's really only 1 in 219 -- less than 1/2 of 1%.

Deducting their highest finish is one idea.  Another thought I have is simply saying it will be treated as though they participated, but got no points, not even participation points.  We give out 6 awards (next year any way), and 3 are based on how you do per game.  The other three, the more you show, the better your chances are.  So if they don't show, they are hurting themselves on those 3.  Getting 0 points but having the game counted in their states would knock them out of any award they were close on.  It wouldn't matter if they were way ahead, but then the other player's finish wouldn't matter either.

Missing the next game would hurt on the three awards that depend on high participation.  The people in the running for this year's awards have attended all games, with one exception.  For that player, he's missed one game.  Missing a second would absolutely kill his chances.  Missing one is probably going to keep him from getting an award he might otherwise have earned.  Having a second game that he misses but gets a 0 on would really hurt on the three that depend on performance per game.

Monetary fines might be easy to administer.  They make sense where there is real harm, but I'm not sure I see real harm here that couldn't be dealt with by loss of points.

TC, you said some of your players are not computer savvy.  Everyone on our list at least has email, text, and cell phones.  That makes them connected, but not necessarily savvy.  Since our games are advertised via email, I guess they would have a very hard time coming to ours without email.  I've told our group that is THE way we will invite.  I'm not willing to do something public like Face Book.

[Martini]

I will cap seating (paid seats) at 30.  Give #31 the option of waiting for someone to bust out and then match the dead stack.

The only thing I see wrong with this is that by the time someone busts out the amount #31 gets in chips may be woefully behind the table average at that time. Not fun coming into a game with say T10k and the average stack at that time is like T18k.

That's not possible. Whenever the first person busts (assuming no rebuy or add ons) the average chip stack is going to be 10,345 (30 * 10K / 29 remaining players).

[Martini]

@Tex Rex
For as thorough as you are in many aspects of your game I'm really surprised that you are so laissez-faire about defining your penalty. If you have thought it through enough to decide that something is against the rules I would think that attaching a penalty would be part of that process. What if the person who no-shows is a good friend of the TD? Making up a penalty after the fact can certainly be seen as showing favoritism. I don't see what being a rare occurrence has to do with anything. Planes don't fall out of the air that often as a percentage of successful flights but there are certainly protocols to be followed once one does.

To expand on your comment about penalty, I like zero points for that game. I would also add that he still owes the buy in since he said he would play and you were never told otherwise. That's great that you get high participation but if someone no-shows that's on them, not you.

[Tex Rex]

Martini, you are right.  We weren't going to impose a penalty after committed though.  We were going to see how it impacted things and decide on a future penalty.  There were four of us who discussed this and we had a difficult time constructing a scenario where a no-show actually hurt another player.  With one month left, there are no scenarios where any player would benefit from doing that.  The races that are close, a player would lose out by not coming.  Whether that was great planning/dumb luck or just the way it happened this year, I don't know.

We aren't likely to charge no-shows because the way things have gone the last several months, another player just steps in.  But it is nice to hear the 0 pts seems workable.