Showdown Procedure

[Poker Jack]

Hi there,

in the TDA rules it says:

"Showdown Order
In a non-all-in showdown, at the end of the last round of betting, the player
who made the last aggressive action in that betting round must show first. If
there was no bet in the last round, the player to the left of the button shows
first and so on clockwise."

Does that mean that every player participating in a showdown MUST show, or can you opt to fold without showing in case you see that you are already beaten?

I'm just curious because many claim that it is allowed to muck your hand at showdown. But I don't see any hint that you have the option of folding at all. (Talking about tournament rules here!)

[Jambine]

Only the player due to act MUST show.  If nobody else shows a hand, that player wins

[72]

in tourney play, you can't fold an all-in (prevents chip dumping & collusion)

otherwise, if you're beat, fold. unless you're the first one to show clockwise from the dealer button, then show 'em.

[Nerre]

If we are to be picky, I don't think folding is the correct term.

A player can discard his hand at showdown, forfeiting the possibility to win the pot, but that is not folding.

[R-Ho]

If we are to be picky, I don't think folding is the correct term.

A player can discard his hand at showdown, forfeiting the possibility to win the pot, but that is not folding.

I think 'fold' is the correct term, if you use RR's definition in his glossary.

R-Ho

[Nerre]

Well, the problem with RR is that the terminology is not always consistent.

The rules say "A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot."

If throwing away your hand is folding, I think the word "fold" should be used in all places instead of sometimes calling it "fold" and sometimes "throw hand away".

That's kind of the whole idea with using defined terms like that.

[nutN2Lewz]

1. When action is on you, you can "check, call, raise, or fold" depending on the situation. This is referred to as "action" or a "betting action".

2. The physical act of giving your cards back to the dealer is referred to as a 'discard" (or "discarding") or "muck" (or "mucking") or "throw your hand away" (or "throwing your hand away").

The first is an official poker betting action and can be accomplished verbally. The second is a physical action and cannot be accomplished verbally.

Good luck, nutn

[R-Ho]

I don't even know if I agree with that, but it reads so much like something that I might have written that I can't argue. CHEERS!

R-Ho

[Wedge Rock]

I often announce "fold" when action is on me, just to keep the game moving.  My thought is that when I announce "fold," the next player can act (sometimes, players don't look at their hole cards until action is on them...I'm signalling to them that action is on them) rather than waiting for me to fold my cards across the table to the dealer.

[Poker Jack]

So, what do you (as the dealer) do when it's showdown time:

(Assuming you are playing by WSOP standard which states that any player at the table may see any folded hand at showdown if he/she so requires)

Scenario 1:
Player A is first to show and shows the nuts
Player B folds
Now, what do you do? Do you muck the folded hand, like, right away, or do you wait one, or two heart beats in case s.o. at the table wants to see the folded hand of Player B?

Scenario 2:
Player A is first to show, but Player B holds a probable winner and shows first
Player A sees he's beat and folds
Now, what do you do? Do you muck the hand of Player A right away, or do you wait one, or two heart beats in case s.o. at the table wants to see the folded hand of Player A?

Just asking for practical advice.

[nutN2Lewz]

Don't wait, just deal.

Good luck, nutn

[Poker Jack]

Don't wait, just deal.

Good luck, nutn

Well, I'd love to, but I've experienced quite some blowback now and again from players being upset about me mucking hands too fast before they can actually state that they want to see the hand.

Well, can't please everybody all the time, I guess.

[72]

Don't wait, just deal.

Good luck, nutn

Well, I'd love to, but I've experienced quite some blowback now and again from players being upset about me mucking hands too fast before they can actually state that they want to see the hand.

Well, can't please everybody all the time, I guess.

wow. nobody trusts anyone else to tell the truth about what they had? why slow down the game so much? time's a ticking in the blind level.... muck it and deal.

and if you get any hag about it, ask them "do you suspect collusion? do you think he's cheating?" and if the answers are no, "ask him what he had."

[nutN2Lewz]

... Well, I'd love to, but I've experienced quite some blowback now and again from players being upset about me mucking hands too fast before they can actually state that they want to see the hand.

The only time a player should be asking to see another player's cards is if they suspect cheating by that player (collusion, chip dumping, etc.). The rule is NOT meant for intelligence gathering about what cards a player held and how he played them.

Tell your players about this aspect of the rule (not meant for intelligence gathering, only to be used when you suspect cheating) and then tell your players that, as host of the game, you would appreciate them coming to you with their suspicions of cheating before they start asking to view another player's cards. If someone asks to see another player's cards - immediately ask them why. "Why do you want to see his cards? Do you suspect cheating? Because if you don't suspect cheating - it is considered bad etiquette to ask to see another player's cards.".

Just a word of warning - if you go to a casino or poker room and start asking to see other player's cards ... you will be scorned by both the players and the house. It is against poker etiquette. Do it in friendly home game and it is considered an insult to both the player and the host. Do it at my home game and I will instantly take you aside and ask you whether you suspect cheating and the grounds for your suspicion. If you don't have reasonable suspicions and you do it again - I will take you aside and let you know that you probably won't be asked back to my game if you do it one more time.

That is why the dealer does not pause a second or two to see if anyone asks to see another player's cards. Asking to view another player's cards is considered bad etiquette and should almost never occur in a home game. It might result in fisticuffs! Keep in mind that all fighting must take place outside the home, and only after all side bets have been made.

Good luck, nutn

[Martini]

I have adopted the rule from the (now defunct) World Poker Association where players cannot ask to see cards but instead can notify the dealer or floorperson of what they suspect then have them look at the cards.

[Nerre]

Since the rule is only supposed to be used when suspecting collusion, a player wanting to see the hand will of course say that as soon as the player announces "fold".

"Hey, why the .... are you folding against that hand? Are you dumping chips?"

Then the dealer will tap the cards on the muck pile (to kill the hand) and show the cards.

To a player asking to see a hand when the showdown is over, sorry, not retreivable.

[Wedge Rock]

So, what do you (as the dealer) do when it's showdown time:

(Assuming you are playing by WSOP standard which states that any player at the table may see any folded hand at showdown if he/she so requires)

Scenario 1:
Player A is first to show and shows the nuts
Player B folds
Now, what do you do? Do you muck the folded hand, like, right away, or do you wait one, or two heart beats in case s.o. at the table wants to see the folded hand of Player B?

Scenario 2:
Player A is first to show, but Player B holds a probable winner and shows first
Player A sees he's beat and folds
Now, what do you do? Do you muck the hand of Player A right away, or do you wait one, or two heart beats in case s.o. at the table wants to see the folded hand of Player A?

Just asking for practical advice.

If, as the questions posit, you are playing by WSOP standards, then you cannot fold an all in hand.  In either situation above, if a player is all-in and a hand is folded, you roll it over rather than muck it.

In any non-allin situation, muck the folded cards and move on.  If someone asks the see them after they are mucked, follow the advice suggested above.

[Poker Jack]

Where I deal, we finally decided on the TDA rule regarding IWTSTH at showdown. The dealers can muck cards without hesitation and everything works much smoother.