Can this get done in 16 hours?

[gomester]

do you think this will get done in 16 hours?  Here is the structure:
2 locations playing 2-3 tables each with same structure.  Anticipated player count to be 20-30 at each location.
Day 1 will play down to either 8 hours of play or final table, whichever comes first. 
Day 2 will probably be the following week with the final 2 tables. 
Starting stack is 20,000 each.
Blind structure I am going to try and do like the WSOP Circuit Main Event as indicated below.  Can we get this done within the (2) 8 hour days or do I need to adjust?  And if so, adjust the blinds or just add a 3rd day or longer days?
Here is the structure:  I could make it all 40 minute rounds throughout as well or start at 30 and then move on to 50 and then 60 towards the end.

Level   Minutes   Ante   Small Blind   Big Blind
1   40      25   50
2   40      50   100
3   40      75   150
Break            
4   40      100   200
5   40   25   100   200
6   40   25   150   300
Break            
7   40   50   200   400
8   40   75   300   600
9   40   100   400   800
End Day 1      Remove   25 Chips   
10   40   100   500   1000
11   40   200   600   1200
12   40   200   700   1400
Break            
13   40   200   800   1600
14   40   300   1000   2000
15   40   400   1200   2400
Break      Remove   100 Chips   
16   60   500   1500   3000
17   60   500   2000   4000
Dinner            
18   60   500   2500   5000
19   60   1000   3000   6000
Break      Remove   500 Chips   
20   60   1000   4000   8000
21   60   1000   5000   10000
Break            
22   60   2000   6000   12000
23   60   2000   7000   14000
End Day 2            
24   60   2000   8000   16000
25   60   3000   10000   20000
Break            
26   75   4000   12000   24000
27   75   5000   15000   30000

[Martini]

I haven't done the math on the blinds but some things jump out at me:

* Your Day 2 is substantially longer than your Day 1
* I would not make blind levels any longer as you get deeper into the tourney. I'd keep them the same or go shorter if anything.
* You should have all contingencies covered in your rules before sending out invites. What happens if a player can't make it to Day 2? What if one of the Day 1's ends at a much different blind level than the other Day 1? What level are you going to start Day 2 at? Are you going to require balanced Day 1's? Redraw for seats on Day 2?
* I would implement the procedure to have a random number of hands (within a range) to prevent anyone from trying to stall out to avoid being hit by the blinds.

To answer your question, you can definitely get it done in 16 hours. You could get it done in basically any amount of time depending on how much of a crap shoot you want it to be. You just need to make sure the blinds force the action enough to finish within the time frame you're looking at.

Personally I don't see the appeal of multi-day events due to all of the logistics hassles but whatever floats your boat!

[gomester]

I haven't done the math on the blinds but some things jump out at me:

* Your Day 2 is substantially longer than your Day 1
* I would not make blind levels any longer as you get deeper into the tourney. I'd keep them the same or go shorter if anything.
* You should have all contingencies covered in your rules before sending out invites. What happens if a player can't make it to Day 2? What if one of the Day 1's ends at a much different blind level than the other Day 1? What level are you going to start Day 2 at? Are you going to require balanced Day 1's? Redraw for seats on Day 2?
* I would implement the procedure to have a random number of hands (within a range) to prevent anyone from trying to stall out to avoid being hit by the blinds.

To answer your question, you can definitely get it done in 16 hours. You could get it done in basically any amount of time depending on how much of a crap shoot you want it to be. You just need to make sure the blinds force the action enough to finish within the time frame you're looking at.

Personally I don't see the appeal of multi-day events due to all of the logistics hassles but whatever floats your boat!

The blind structure is taken from WSOP Circuit Main event.  Like I said previously, we will play down 8 or 9 hours.  so day 2 is not substantially longer than day 1.  

Most tourneys do have blind levels go longer as you get deeper but keeping it the same is fine.  That is why I asked.  I would not go shorter.

As far as "contingencies covered in rules", I am well aware of that and that is pretty basic.   My question was not asking about that and no offense, but I want to keep this on the subject at hand which is simply the blind schedule.   The rest I can handle and do not need any input on.  I don't want to get into it and make the thread longer than need be with stuff that I do not need a 2nd set of eyes on, I am simply asking about getting the tourney done in 16 hours with about 40-50 ppl and what I need to adjust on the structure that I listed.  I was thinking maybe all at 40 minute rounds all the way through.

And to answer your "comment" about the multi-day event, it is a way to have at separate locations to handle more players and have a better structure with a longer tourney so as not to be a "crap-shoot" as you put it.

So if we can, let's stay on point and concentrate on a blind structure for a 40-50 person tourney for 16-18 hours.  I have run many tourneys but not with this amount of people; typically up to 27 ppl.  This is a lot different.

Thanks for understanding and for the input!

[Martini]

Maybe I misunderstood your schedule then. Day 1 you have 9 rounds at 40 minutes or 6 hours of play. Your Day 2 has 6 rounds of 40 plus 8 rounds of 60 or 12 hours of play. That was why I said your second day was longer. And your Day 1 doesn't go up to 8 hours either so maybe the day breaks are just in the wrong place? Not sure.

Sounds like you have things well in hand with the details. You'd be surprised at how many times people come to the forum after they've already dug themselves in a hole by not having their ducks in a row. Just trying to help you avoid potential pitfalls because there are issues unique to multi-day tourneys that you may or may not foresee.

Another thing that I just noticed is to make sure that 8 hours is enough to eliminate enough people. You are playing 400xBB deep and a slow gentle schedule. If you don't knock out enough people within 8 hours then you might end up with too many people to all fit in a single location for Day 2. At this point I think that's the biggest risk you're looking at. There are estimation formulas for determining when a tourney will end based on blinds to total chips in play ratio. I do not know of a similar formula to determine how many players would get eliminated. I would look up old WSOP events and find out the ratio of players knocked out after X many rounds to get a rough gauge how many players you will lose.

[gomester]

Maybe I misunderstood your schedule then. Day 1 you have 9 rounds at 40 minutes or 6 hours of play. Your Day 2 has 6 rounds of 40 plus 8 rounds of 60 or 12 hours of play. That was why I said your second day was longer. And your Day 1 doesn't go up to 8 hours either so maybe the day breaks are just in the wrong place? Not sure.

Sounds like you have things well in hand with the details. You'd be surprised at how many times people come to the forum after they've already dug themselves in a hole by not having their ducks in a row. Just trying to help you avoid potential pitfalls because there are issues unique to multi-day tourneys that you may or may not foresee.

Another thing that I just noticed is to make sure that 8 hours is enough to eliminate enough people. You are playing 400xBB deep and a slow gentle schedule. If you don't knock out enough people within 8 hours then you might end up with too many people to all fit in a single location for Day 2. At this point I think that's the biggest risk you're looking at. There are estimation formulas for determining when a tourney will end based on blinds to total chips in play ratio. I do not know of a similar formula to determine how many players would get eliminated. I would look up old WSOP events and find out the ratio of players knocked out after X many rounds to get a rough gauge how many players you will lose.

Haha, yeah I know of many people that run piss-poor tourneys.  I have been running them for 5 years and there is always room for improvement .  Thanks for looking out.

As far as the schedule, that was a standardized one I took from WSOP which I definitely need to modify.  I am in the process of that right now. 

I know there are formulas, but not sure those would work out the same with 50 ppl.  That is more or less what I was getting at. 

Yeah, the thing about eliminating enough people is what I was looking at as well.  I can actually fit 3 tables at my house (the place where day 2 will be held).  I just cannot fit 4 or 5 .  My other friend can fit 3 tables as well.  We are planning (crossing fingers) to get 50 which would be about 25 per location.  I would like to get down to a final table at each location.  I was thinking more like 9 hours of play and making the first day 30 minute rounds.  Then extend to 40 minute on day 2 and 50 minute for the final table.  I am thinking that should get it done somewhere between level 29 and 32.  Does that sound about right?

My only other concern is that if I play down 9 hours at each location and one location reaches the final table at their location in under 9 hours I don't really want to play down to less than one full table before reaching day 2.  That is the only other piece I still need to figure out.  I don't really think though that with 20k in starting chips that we would be down to less than 10 ppl t the 2500/5000/500 blind (sb/bb/ante).

I need to have consistency 100% across both locations which is why I will be making up some rules stating what do about certain situations (i.e.:  4 card flop, exposed card(s), moving players, etc).  We have dedicated dealers that know all the rules which makes things go smoother as well and td software as well.  We might even have a streaming feed for the final table :O


I will post my revised structure when I get it finalized in my head and maybe you can critique that one and let me know what you think.

Thanks again for the input.

[William]

The formula for finding the last round is as follows:

Big Blind = Starting stack * total number of players / 20

So, in your case 60 * 20,000 / 20 = 60,000. That would be level 30. (But probably a couple of levels before that).

I wouldn't lengthen the blind levels as the fields get smaller, but stick to a fixed length overall.

[Dr. Neau]

The formula for finding the last round is as follows:

Big Blind = Starting stack * total number of players / 20

So, in your case 60 * 20,000 / 20 = 60,000. That would be level 30. (But probably a couple of levels before that).

I wouldn't lengthen the blind levels as the fields get smaller, but stick to a fixed length overall.

50 players, not 60...

(T20,000 * 50) * 5% = T50,000

And gomester, this formula will hold pretty much true for anywhere from 2 to a zillion players.

[gomester]

The formula for finding the last round is as follows:

Big Blind = Starting stack * total number of players / 20

So, in your case 60 * 20,000 / 20 = 60,000. That would be level 30. (But probably a couple of levels before that).

I wouldn't lengthen the blind levels as the fields get smaller, but stick to a fixed length overall.

50 players, not 60...

(T20,000 * 50) * 5% = T50,000

And gomester, this formula will hold pretty much true for anywhere from 2 to a zillion players.

ahhh, thank you very much.  Exactly what I was looking for.  What is the methodology behind the 5% by the way.  I think I have an idea but want to hear from the master

[William]

If the total number of chips equals 20 big blinds that means that both players have at the most 10 big blinds each.

That means that a three bet puts both players all-in. There's not much play left at that point.

You'll often find though that the game finishes when both players have about 30 big blinds each on a bad bluff or monster vs. monster.

[Nerre]

You'll often find though that the game finishes when both players have about 30 big blinds each on a bad bluff or monster vs. monster.

Yes, the "winning hand" most often isn't a very spectacular hand. I really find this "posing with the winning hand" a bit silly, since usually it was not the final hand that made that player the winner. More often was it an (or several) earlier hand(s). The final play is mostly about grinding the shortstack down to zero.

[gomester]

Here is the proposed structure.  Question:  Do you see any issues with not having the antes?  i.e.:  taking a lot longer, etc. 
My goal is the first day by level 16 to be down to at least half the field.  Do you think that is realistic without antes and the following structure?
Thanks in advance.
p.s.:  if you have trouble reading this, you can see the web version at http://www.gomestoc.com/2%20day%20deep%20stack.html


Level   Duration   Small Blind   Big Blind   Ante   Start Time   Chip Up
Round 1   30m   $25   $50   $0   0:00   
Round 2   30m   $50   $100   $0   0:30   
Round 3   30m   $75   $150   $0   1:00   
Round 4   30m   $100   $200   $0   1:30   
Break 1   15m            2:00   
Round 5   30m   $100   $200   $25   2:15   
Round 6   30m   $150   $300   $25   2:45   
Round 7   30m   $200   $400   $50   3:15   
Round 8   30m   $300   $600   $75   3:45   
Break 2   30m            4:15   yes
Round 9   30m   $400   $800   $100   4:45   
Round 10   30m   $500   $1,000   $100   5:15   
Round 11   30m   $600   $1,200   $200   5:45   
Round 12   30m   $700   $1,400   $200   6:15   
Break 3   15m            6:45   
Round 13   30m   $800   $1,600   $200   7:00   
Round 14   30m   $1,000   $2,000   $300   7:30   
Round 15   30m   $1,200   $2,400   $400   8:00   
Break 4; Day 1 end or final table at any location   15m            8:30   yes
Round 16   30m   $1,500   $3,000   $500   8:45   
Round 17   30m   $2,000   $4,000   $500   9:15   
Round 18   30m   $2,500   $5,000   $500   9:45   
Break 5   15m            10:15   yes
Round 19   30m   $3,000   $6,000   $1,000   10:30   
Round 20   30m   $4,000   $8,000   $1,000   11:00   
Round 21   30m   $5,000   $10,000   $1,000   11:30   
Round 22   30m   $6,000   $12,000   $2,000   12:00   
Break 6   15m            12:30   
Round 23   30m   $7,000   $14,000   $2,000   12:45   
Round 24   30m   $8,000   $16,000   $2,000   13:15   
Round 25   30m   $10,000   $20,000   $3,000   13:45   
Round 26   30m   $12,000   $24,000   $4,000   14:15   
Break 7   30m            14:45   yes
Round 27   30m   $15,000   $30,000   $5,000   15:15   
Round 28   30m   $20,000   $40,000   $5,000   15:45   
Round 29   30m   $25,000   $50,000   $5,000   16:15   
Round 30   30m   $30,000   $60,000   $10,000   16:45   
Round 31   30m   $40,000   $80,000   $10,000   17:15   
Round 32   30m   $50,000   $10,000   $10,000   17:45   

[William]

Looks sweet

Though I personally wouldn't use the 700/1400 and 7,000/14,000 levels.

[gomester]

Looks sweet

Though I personally wouldn't use the 700/1400 and 7,000/14,000 levels.

Yeah.  I was thinking the same thing but i took this from the wsop circuit schedule.  If I took out the 700/1400 and 7000/14000 though and removed the antes, do you think we can get from 25 ppl to 13 ppl by level 16?