Tourney question??? Missing player...

[Killa Cali]

Had this question come up and I have no idea what the answer is. Can anybody help?
8 players pay in advance for a tourney that starts at 7pm.  As round 1 starts, only 7 of the 8 players are seated playing, so the game can continue since we can start throwing in the blinds for the missing player correct?  What happens if player #8 never shows up to the game? Do we blind him down to $0 or are his chips removed from play at a certain point?  If removed, when do we?  What brought this up was lets say on a miracle hand during the tourney, the 7 players all go all-in.  Theoretically this could leave 1 winner and 2nd place would go to the player that never showed???  Any help would be appreciated. 

[Martini]

RRoP says: "5. If a paid entrant is absent at the start of an event, at some point an effort will be made to locate and contact the player. If the player requests the chips be left in place until arrival, the request will be honored. If the player is unable to be contacted, the chips may be removed from play at the discretion of the director anytime after a new betting level is begun or a half-hour has elapsed, whichever occurs first."

I would say that it is typical that the chips just stay in play until blinded down to nothing since the player has already paid his money into the pot.

Yes, if your "miracle hand" happens then an absent player could indeed come in second. If a player who showed up cannot outlast a chip stack with no one at the wheel then that's his problem.

[72]

As soon as the initial deal of hole cards is dealt every round, dealer should be mucking absent players hands. in the blinds, i wait til action comes to them before mucking their hands.

If you can't contact that absent player or they cannot make it, their chips should be removed well before they can be in the money.

[links__slayer]

If you can't contact that absent player or they cannot make it, their chips should be removed well before they can be in the money.

I would strongly object to this if I were the player that had paid in advance, as was the case in the OP.

[rqpd]

I completely agree with removing the chips from the table if:

1.  The player was so rude as no not call and tell me they would be late
2.  I can not locate the player by phone
3.  1st break has been reached

It's not fair to the remaining players that one player, immediately to the right of the vacant seat get's to be the button 2 hands every round all night long.

If the player does eventually show up, I would put the chips back minus 1 set of blinds for every round we played.  I would also remind him to contact me so this doesn't happen again.

[72]

the tourneys i deal at the casino, 20 min blinds, first break is after the 3rd blind level(1 hour of play) we remove stacks from all empty seats.

if in your game the player didn't contact you to tell you they were running late or how late they will be, as TD you should have rules stating if you're not here by XX minutes after play has started or X blind level without contacting me, your stacks are pulled. paid or not. very rude not to call, and you should expect him not to show at all and thank him for his donation.

[William]

Specify it in your house rules.

If it's not specified the stacks should be blinded down to nothing or until the player arrives, whichever comes first.

If you've specified when ghost stacks will be removed (usually at the first break or at the end of the rebuy/add-on period), also specify what happens to the buy-in. Will it stay part of the pot, or will it be refunded? I would recommend returning the buy-in to the player.


I've gone through various permutations of the rules, starting with requiring payment of the buy-in 5 days in advance, and making it non-refundable. Requiring payment of the buy-in 5 days in advance, and making it non-refundable 24 hours before the tournament starts, and now requiring payment of at least 6 players one day in advance, and making it non-refundable when the tournament starts.

So, if you can't make it, let me know before we begin and you'll get your money back. Once the cards are in the air the chips stay on the table, waiting for your arrival, and will be blinded off.

(Click to show/hide)

Neither option has had the desired result though. Still can't get three players together for a game of poker...

[Martini]

If you do buy-ins on the spot when starting the tournament then you don't need to worry about a player not showing up since they'd have to be there to pay in the first place.

Personally I'm in the camp of binding the player off completely if they've paid. If you are going to remove chips after a certain period of time I would recommend a house rule specifying exactly what the procedure is as has been recommended already i this thread. I would also make sure to specify what happens when a player is present at the beginning of a tourney but leaves part way through. Would they have their chips removed in that situation as well? And if so, after how long? And, to address 72's comment, can they make it into the money or cash if they aren't there?

[KPrather]

Yes, if your "miracle hand" happens then an absent player could indeed come in second. If a player who showed up cannot outlast a chip stack with no one at the wheel then that's his problem.

This.

[72]

I would also make sure to specify what happens when a player is present at the beginning of a tourney but leaves part way through. Would they have their chips removed in that situation as well? And if so, after how long? And, to address 72's comment, can they make it into the money or cash if they aren't there?

I have seen situations like this happen at the casino. Emergency arises, they have to leave. They may come back, however unlikely, so we leave their stacks and blind them out. Never in 10 years have i seen a dead stack make the money - we have 110 player T500 rebuy tournaments that last as long as 8 hours.

[Nerre]

Yes, if your "miracle hand" happens then an absent player could indeed come in second. If a player who showed up cannot outlast a chip stack with no one at the wheel then that's his problem.

This.

Yes, it's quite easy to calculate how long it takes for a blinded off stack to disappear. I once did a quick estimation in Excel and the blinded off stack was out about halfway into the toruney.

[Martini]

I would also make sure to specify what happens when a player is present at the beginning of a tourney but leaves part way through. Would they have their chips removed in that situation as well? And if so, after how long? And, to address 72's comment, can they make it into the money or cash if they aren't there?

I have seen situations like this happen at the casino. Emergency arises, they have to leave. They may come back, however unlikely, so we leave their stacks and blind them out. Never in 10 years have i seen a dead stack make the money - we have 110 player T500 rebuy tournaments that last as long as 8 hours.

I'm not saying it's common or anything but it does happen.

"Ungar's drug problem escalated to such a point that during the WSOP main event in 1990, Ungar was found on the third day of the tournament unconscious on the floor of his hotel room from a drug overdose. However, he had such a chip lead that even when the dealers kept taking his blinds out every time around the table Ungar still finished 9th and pocketed $20,500."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stu_Ungar#Betting.2C_drugs_and_divorce

[Killa Cali]

Thanks a lot for all your input.  Much appreciated.  Sounds like the main consensus is that as long as the house rules state it, then the missing players stack could be taken off the table at the 1st break.  To me that seems the best and most trouble-free option if we are unable to contact a missing player. Thanks again.

[Dr. Neau]

This is one of those cases where I don't think it's right to look to how a casino handles it and try to apply it to your home tournament.

A casino has a lot bigger things to worry about than tracking some dork's stack to fails to show.  Therefore, stacks are pulled at a certain point.

However, you in your home game...you're playing with people you know.  And you're usually playing with far fewer people than a casino has to worry about.

For home games, this is my rule:  If the person paid, then their stack stays on the table until blinded off.  If you pull their stack, then they are due a refund.  Anything else and you are screwing them.

As far as the comment to "they were so rude as to not call me": You know what?  Life happens.  Don't take it personally.

[Martini]

...
As far as the comment to "they were so rude as to not call me": You know what?  Life happens.  Don't take it personally.

Yeah, the guy just donated a buy in to the prize pool and will in all likelihood get blinded off and not come close to cashing. It's inconsiderate of him to not call but at least everyone else benefits. What's rude is to commit to showing up and having chips being blinded off but not showing *or* paying your buy in.

Personally I don't put chips on until someone pays. If they show up late they pay first then start off with a stack that has chips removed based on how late they are. That way there are no side effects from the ghost stack on the table.

[Gobbs]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.  It's no different than showing up, pulling out a book, and reading the whole tournament without playing a hand.

KC

[Dr. Neau]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.  It's no different than showing up, pulling out a book, and reading the whole tournament without playing a hand.

KC

And by either method, Gobbs would last longer than he normally does.

[KPrather]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.  It's no different than showing up, pulling out a book, and reading the whole tournament without playing a hand.

KC

And by either method, Gobbs would last longer than he normally does.

*grabs popcorn* 

[Gobbs]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.  It's no different than showing up, pulling out a book, and reading the whole tournament without playing a hand.

KC

And by either method, Gobbs would last longer than he normally does.

That's not true ...

... But only because I often play that way.

KC

[Gobbs]

I have taken third in a 10-player SNG without playing a hand until I was in the money, but the stars just happened to align perfectly.

KC

[Wedge Rock]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.

That's why my house rules make it illegal to do this.

If you prepay but don't show up, your chips remain in play until you are blinded off.  You win any money associated with the place you finish.  However, you don't earn any tournament points.

The thought behind this was the only time it may be used to exploit the league was towards the end of the season when players needed points to make the Championship.  So we agreed that you can't earn points unless you are actually present.

Absent such a house rule, though, I think chips stay in play, cash prize is paid out and tournament points (in league play) should be awarded.

[Nerre]

However, you don't earn any tournament points.

The I assume that the other tournament players do not get points based on a number of players where the absent player is included?

[Gobbs]

If I pay my entry fee, I can choose to play my chips however I legally want.  If I elect to play them by not showing up and getting blinded off, that is my option.

That's why my house rules make it illegal to do this.

If you prepay but don't show up, your chips remain in play until you are blinded off.  You win any money associated with the place you finish.  However, you don't earn any tournament points.

The thought behind this was the only time it may be used to exploit the league was towards the end of the season when players needed points to make the Championship.  So we agreed that you can't earn points unless you are actually present.

Absent such a house rule, though, I think chips stay in play, cash prize is paid out and tournament points (in league play) should be awarded.

I don't see why there needs to be a distinction.  I can just as easily sit there and read a book.  Why is somebody's presence required to fold every hand?

KC

[Dr. Neau]

I'm simply trying to understand why all these home tournaments need to have the concept of "prepaying" in the first place...

Are people scared they'll burn through their money before the tournament starts?
Does the host encourage prepaying so he can collect 1 week's interest on their buy-in?

Why on earth would I want to give my money to someone in advance when I don't have to?

[nutN2Lewz]

...Why on earth would I want to give my money to someone in advance when I don't have to?

The host might want you to prepay to ensure that you show up for the game. If you don't show up - we already got your money and you are not getting it back. I have several players who have proven, by their past absences, that they might not show up for games - those players must prepay if they want to reserve a seat at my game.

Good luck, nutn

[Dr. Neau]

...Why on earth would I want to give my money to someone in advance when I don't have to?

The host might want you to prepay to ensure that you show up for the game. If you don't show up - we already got your money and you are not getting it back. I have several players who have proven, by their past absences, that they might not show up for games - those players must prepay if they want to reserve a seat at my game.

Good luck, nutn

Hmm.  I just stop inviting them.

[Tex Rex]

OK, finally going to jump in here.

One reason to prepay is we've sometimes had enough people commit to play.  The host sets everything up.  All of the guests show up, except one.  But now there's not enough to play.  (That number may vary by the players who show up -- some won't play without at least 6, others want at least 5, so it could vary.)  I've heard some people tell the player since everyone counted on them, they don't play again unless they pay that committed entry fee.  While I understand the frustration, that seems harsh.  They might never play again, which really doesn't help either.

I'm not a fan of prepaying when I play or pre-charging when I host.  As Dr. Neau says, life does happen and it's really not personal.  The situation is frustrating since everyone could have planned something else that night.  But I'm also the guy who when I say I'll be there, barring a true emergency, I will be there.

I've also had the situation where people who aren't coming don't respond at all.  Others are planning to come, but haven't told anyone.  I canceled once because I didn't have enough responses.  3 people arrived at my door ready to play.  They hadn't signed up, and I had to tell them we canceled for lack of response.  I told them honestly if even one more had committed, we would have played.  They all learned a lesson.

I'm wondering how do y'all get players to come.  Our game stopped for quite a while because we had difficulty getting enough to come.  I'd love to hear what y'all think works.

[Gobbs]

We've often experienced the exact opposite problem, but have not resorted to pre-paying yet.  We may limit the number of players to one or two tables, have too many responses, have to turn people away, and then a couple people who committed don't show up.  It's usually the same couple of people, too.  I believe the good doctor has the best idea for solving that problem ... No more invitations for them.

KC