Wrong deck used for board cards

[Muley05]

I was playing in a self deal tourney a few weeks ago where two decks were being used.  Two players go to the flop.  For some reason, the player who was shuffling for the next hand dealt out the flop.  Bets were made. Turn was flipped, and again bets were made.  The burn for the river is placed down, when a player not in the hand notices that the burn cards are a different color than the muck pile.  How do you rule since bets have been made on two streets?

It was ruled a misdeal, and the players split what was in the pot.  We passed the button and played the next hand.  Not sure if that was the correct thing to do.  Thoughts I had:

1) It would be tough to deal out the board cards with the correct deck, since players would have had info based on the bets for the wrong board.

2) We probably should have given everyone back their bets, including the blinds, and re-played the hand with new cards for everyone. 

[Martini]

3. If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.

http://www.homepokertourney.com/roberts-rules-of-poker.htm#IRREGULARITIES

[Gobbs]

... and probably a good example of why rotating deal games stink.

KC

[pauld22]

... and probably a good example of why rotating deal games can stink.

KC

FY-broad,generalized,blanketsweep-P

[Dr. Neau]

Not sure why you declared a misdeal AND passed the button.  Should've kept the button where it was and redealt.

[hayjamawas]

... and probably a good example of why rotating deal games can stink.

KC

FY-broad,generalized,blanketsweep-P

agreed...we cant afford to pay dealers to deal home games and usually one person doesnt want to get stuck doing it the whole night...so what are u gonna do

[Jambine]

... and probably a good example of why rotating deal games can stink.

KC

FY-broad,generalized,blanketsweep-P

agreed...we cant afford to pay dealers to deal home games and usually one person doesnt want to get stuck doing it the whole night...so what are u gonna do

Well, we simply have someone deal for 1/2 hr or so, then someone else deals 1/2 hr or so, and so on.  Keeps the game going at a nice rhythm.  Never any question what color deck is in use, where the muck is, who is shuffling, where the button goes, why do I have three cards, whtzit to call, was that a raise, why are there two Ace of Clubs on board.........

These questions never come up with ONE dealer and ONE deck of cards in use.

[Martini]

Come on everybody. There are certainly compelling arguments for having a dedicated dealer but dealing from the wrong deck has got to be one of the thinnest reasons for doing so. If you're going to lobby for using a dedicated dealer then at least play up the compelling reasons.

Oh, and incidentally, it is possible to have a dedicated dealer AND use two different decks. It's done all the time in casinos and it's not that hard to do in a home game either.

[Nerre]

Oh, and incidentally, it is possible to have a dedicated dealer AND use two different decks. It's done all the time in casinos and it's not that hard to do in a home game either.

Yes, but with one dealer there won't be two players holding a deck at the same time, as it is when you use two decks and a rotating deal.

In this situation, how come the "correct" dealer didn't notice someone else was dealing the board cards? Was he holding a deck without dealing cards? Or did he even put the deck down on the table? (A big no-no in my eyes, the dealer must have control of the deck all the time.)


(Also, in casinos, even though there is a setup of decks at the table, they don't switch decks every hand.)

[72]

there must have been alcohol involved in that scenario lol.

(Also, in casinos, even though there is a setup of decks at the table, they don't switch decks every hand.)

sure we do, when we have auto shufflers.

[Martini]

Let me just throw these things out there and see if we can agree on some things.

* Having a dedicated dealer does not necessarily mean that you are only using one deck.
Yes, casinos have auto shufflers. Home games with a dedicated dealer can either use a Shuffle Tech or have other people at the table shuffle. The main point I'm trying to make here is that these are two separate issues that often get lumped together.

* How well a game is run depends on the skill of whoever is dealing and not on the number of dealers.
Having a dedicated dealer doing a poor job would be worse than having a rotating deal at a table with players who can all deal competently. Of course anyone who ends up in the role of being a dedicated dealer will often do a reasonably good job at it for various reasons (like the group not tolerating a poor dealer doing it all night or the fact that people who volunteer to deal are the ones who know better) but having a dedicated dealer does not magically mean your game runs better because of it.

* Games with two decks run faster than with one deck
I know this point is debated by some but quite frankly if you can somehow properly do a proper shuffling procedure faster than it takes you to exchange an unshuffled deck for a shuffled one then you're doing something wrong. Otherwise, why would casinos spend extra money on an automatic shuffler instead of having the dealer shuffle one deck? Now is it *possible* that a dedicated dealer with one deck can process a shuffle faster than a rotating deal with two decks? Sure it's possible, but not likely. Can a game with a dedicated dealer and one deck run faster than a rotating deal? Definitely, but how much of that is due to the dealer doing his job and keeping the action going and not due to the fact that there is one deck? All of it I'd say.

I'm just tired of all of these issues getting lumped together. In this thread there is a mistake made which would have been impossible with one deck. The problem happened because of the dealer not doing his job, not from using two decks. Does that mean that using two decks is inherently evil? I'd gladly take the extremely rare incidence of a deck mixup in exchange for the 99.999% of the time that no mixup happens and the game moves faster from using two decks.

[Dr. Neau]

I've had that mixup happen exactly once in my 7 years of playing home tournaments.

The one time it happened is because for some reason both the current deck and the next deck were sitting directly under the current dealer.  A really bad idea.

If the next/last deck is simply kept out of reach of the current dealer, then there is no chance of this problem happening.

[Martini]

I've had that mixup happen exactly once in my 7 years of playing home tournaments.

The one time it happened is because for some reason both the current deck and the next deck were sitting directly under the current dealer.  A really bad idea.

If the next/last deck is simply kept out of reach of the current dealer, then there is no chance of this problem happening.

Or even if the other deck is next to the dealer, as long as protocol is followed and the stub is always held in hand then that mistake doesn't happen either. Again, the skill of whoever is dealing and following procedures will dictate how the game runs regardless of how many decks or dealers the game has.

[Wedge Rock]

I've seen DD do this...  twice.  He dealt from the deck he was shuffling.  Luckily, both times, it was caught before any action.

We keep a close eye on DD now.

I agree that the hand should be voided, the money returned to the bettors, and the hand re-done.  Fairest resolution possible.

I think everyone agrees that a dedicated dealer is the best possible approach.  I think if they grew on trees, we'd all have them.  But its not always feasible at a home game.

That said, we've developed our players into fairly competent dealers and we have a few "table captains" that double check the dealers' actions at each table.  It works for us.

We'll get a dedicated dealer for special tournaments like the Championship.

[Wedge Rock]

Or even if the other deck is next to the dealer, as long as protocol is followed and the stub is always held in hand then that mistake doesn't happen either. Again, the skill of whoever is dealing and following procedures will dictate how the game runs regardless of how many decks or dealers the game has.

Agreed.  I don't set down the stub until the deal is done/the hand is over.

[Gobbs]

Let me just throw these things out there and see if we can agree on some things.

* Having a dedicated dealer does not necessarily mean that you are only using one deck.
Yes, casinos have auto shufflers. Home games with a dedicated dealer can either use a Shuffle Tech or have other people at the table shuffle. The main point I'm trying to make here is that these are two separate issues that often get lumped together.

* How well a game is run depends on the skill of whoever is dealing and not on the number of dealers.
Having a dedicated dealer doing a poor job would be worse than having a rotating deal at a table with players who can all deal competently. Of course anyone who ends up in the role of being a dedicated dealer will often do a reasonably good job at it for various reasons (like the group not tolerating a poor dealer doing it all night or the fact that people who volunteer to deal are the ones who know better) but having a dedicated dealer does not magically mean your game runs better because of it.

* Games with two decks run faster than with one deck
I know this point is debated by some but quite frankly if you can somehow properly do a proper shuffling procedure faster than it takes you to exchange an unshuffled deck for a shuffled one then you're doing something wrong. Otherwise, why would casinos spend extra money on an automatic shuffler instead of having the dealer shuffle one deck? Now is it *possible* that a dedicated dealer with one deck can process a shuffle faster than a rotating deal with two decks? Sure it's possible, but not likely. Can a game with a dedicated dealer and one deck run faster than a rotating deal? Definitely, but how much of that is due to the dealer doing his job and keeping the action going and not due to the fact that there is one deck? All of it I'd say.

I'm just tired of all of these issues getting lumped together. In this thread there is a mistake made which would have been impossible with one deck. The problem happened because of the dealer not doing his job, not from using two decks. Does that mean that using two decks is inherently evil? I'd gladly take the extremely rare incidence of a deck mixup in exchange for the 99.999% of the time that no mixup happens and the game moves faster from using two decks.

I'd rather the game move smoothly and competently under the control of a good dealer.  I think mst players agree its a more pleasant experience Han he multitude of issues that arise from a rotating deal.

KC

[nutN2Lewz]

I never, ever, have rotating dealers at my games - too many problems with inexperienced dealers. And besides, it's very diifficult to deal from the end of a rectangular table. You gotta stand up and toss the cards a couple feet to the far end of the table. It's hard to scoop chips and cards. And the board cards are hard to see when they are placed at one end of the table.

As a TD, you might consider keeping a yardstick handy and when you see that the dealer (or someone else with a deck of cards) is about to do something stupid - one good thwack across the hands with the yardstick and they get the point. That's what the nuns always did to me in high school.

Gobbs - My nephew is a Stanford 2011 Orange Bowl champion. He played for the Calgary Stampeders this year.

Good luck, nutn

[Nerre]

* Having a dedicated dealer does not necessarily mean that you are only using one deck.

Having a dedicated dealer means that person shuffles and deals. A dedicated dealer handling two decks will NOT speed things up.

If you involve another person shuffling the extra deck you do no longer have a dedicated dealer.

Yes, casinos have auto shufflers.

But they did not 10 years ago. And it worked for them, why wouldn't work for home games today?

Having a dedicated dealer doing a poor job would be worse than having a rotating deal at a table with players who can all deal competently.

You are missing the main point: having several people taking turns to deal means that there may be misunderstandings on who's turn it is. That is what happened in this situation. The "dealer" who was supposed to be only shuffling started dealing cards. With only one dealer the wrong dealer can never start dealing cards because there is no "wrong dealer".

* Games with two decks run faster than with one deck

Not necessarily. Confusion on who's turn it is to start dealing can give delays. Is the "next" dealer always ready to start dealing as soon as the cards from the previous hand has been collected? Does it never happen that hole cards for the new hand are dealt before the old board cards have been mucked?

Using two decks open up for A LOT of problems if not strictly controlled. And who shall be responsible for that control?

In this situation both "dealers" screwed up, one started dealing when he shouldn't and the other one didn't realise he should be the one dealing the hole cards. That situation could never have happened with a single deck, nor with a single dealer.

[Dr. Neau]

What's with all this confusion over whose turn it is to deal??? Seriously...there's a little device that can help you keep track of that...

[Martini]

I would say that it's stating the obvious that everyone would *prefer* to have a dedicated dealer take care of all dealing/shuffling duties for everyone else at the table. I also have no issue with the notion that a game with a dedicated dealer will, all other things being equal, run more smoothly than a rotating deal.

What I don't understand is why anyone would think that a person who is acting as a dedicated dealer would be totally efficient and error-free but somehow turn into a blithering incompetent fool when dealing in a game with a rotating deal. Pointing out nothing but rare mistakes as evidence that using a rotating deal is a flawed system is frankly a bit bigoted.

[Nerre]

What's with all this confusion over whose turn it is to deal??? Seriously...there's a little device that can help you keep track of that...

Well, in this case obviously the two "dealers" did not look for that device...

[Nerre]

What I don't understand is why anyone would think that a person who is acting as a dedicated dealer would be totally efficient and error-free but somehow turn into a blithering incompetent fool when dealing in a game with a rotating deal.

An dedicated dealer is not error-free, BUT (and this is the important part) the rule sets have rules handling how to do when a dedicated dealer screws up. I have not yet seen any rule set handling situations when two "dealers" both screw up.

As I wrote in a previous post: Who is responsible for making sure the right dealer deals the right deck?

With only one dealer and only one deck there is no possibility for the wrong dealer to deal the wrong deck, thus there is no need for rules handling such situations.

If you are going to use a rotating deal and/or two decks, you must make sure your rule set covers the errors than can happen.

[Martini]

What I don't understand is why anyone would think that a person who is acting as a dedicated dealer would be totally efficient and error-free but somehow turn into a blithering incompetent fool when dealing in a game with a rotating deal.

An dedicated dealer is not error-free, BUT (and this is the important part) the rule sets have rules handling how to do when a dedicated dealer screws up. I have not yet seen any rule set handling situations when two "dealers" both screw up.

As I wrote in a previous post: Who is responsible for making sure the right dealer deals the right deck?

With only one dealer and only one deck there is no possibility for the wrong dealer to deal the wrong deck, thus there is no need for rules handling such situations.

If you are going to use a rotating deal and/or two decks, you must make sure your rule set covers the errors than can happen.

I would handle the situation the same way as I would if a dedicated dealer dealt from the wrong deck.

For the record, I've run games with dedicated dealers who didn't play, dedicated dealers who did play, dedicated dealers with one deck, dedicated dealers with two decks, dedicated dealers with two decks and an auto-shuffler, dedicated dealers with rotating shuffle, and rotating dealers/shufflers (probably some other combination of the above as well but you get the idea - now that I think of it I actually stopped by for a bar league with rotating deal and one deck so throw that one in there too). I prefer and use a dedicated dealer format. I'm not biased against in any way whatsoever.

However, I understand that some games use dedicated dealers and some games use rotating dealers. Either format can work just fine and either format can have terrible results, depending on the skill of whoever is dealing. If a dedicated dealer accidentally picks up and deals from the wrong deck I'm not going to jump up and down and blame the incident on the fact that he was a dedicated dealer (one could argue that having a rotating deal would have prevented him from even getting his hands on the second deck since the person next to him would have had it in his possession). Nor do I think it is justified to blame the rotating deal format because of an isolated incident due to the dealer not following proper procedures.

[Gobbs]

I don't think anybody is saying a dedicated dealeri is infallible, but I also don't believe anybody believes a rotating deal with experienced players is better than a dedicated semi-competent dealer.  A dedicated dealer can follow procedures and get into a groove.  A rotating deal prevents both things from happening, especially on an oval table.

KC

[Martini]

I don't think anybody is saying a dedicated dealeri is infallible, but I also don't believe anybody believes a rotating deal with experienced players is better than a dedicated semi-competent dealer.  A dedicated dealer can follow procedures and get into a groove.  A rotating deal prevents both things from happening, especially on an oval table.

KC

I would not agree that a rotating deal prevents a dealer from following procedures. I don't see why that would be the case apart from the obvious exception to how cards are collected and shuffled by a dedicated dealer though the procedure for rotating deal would just be used instead. I would also say that a game with a rotating deal can get into a groove of its own though, clearly, different than how a dedicated dealer would get into an individual groove.

[72]

I don't think anybody is saying a dedicated dealeri is infallible, but I also don't believe anybody believes a rotating deal with experienced players is better than a dedicated semi-competent dealer.  A dedicated dealer can follow procedures and get into a groove.  A rotating deal prevents both things from happening, especially on an oval table.

KC

but what if you had a rotating deal with a table full of professional casino dealers? my home cash games are like that, we only use one deck on the table. the funniest thing is when we play PLO and someone says "pot" and we all say the same number out loud.

[Gobbs]

I don't think anybody is saying a dedicated dealeri is infallible, but I also don't believe anybody believes a rotating deal with experienced players is better than a dedicated semi-competent dealer.  A dedicated dealer can follow procedures and get into a groove.  A rotating deal prevents both things from happening, especially on an oval table.

KC

I would not agree that a rotating deal prevents a dealer from following procedures. I don't see why that would be the case apart from the obvious exception to how cards are collected and shuffled by a dedicated dealer though the procedure for rotating deal would just be used instead. I would also say that a game with a rotating deal can get into a groove of its own though, clearly, different than how a dedicated dealer would get into an individual groove.

There are rare exceptions, but it is very rare to find a tournament in which even half the players know how to deal well.  If you don't know the procedures, it's pretty hard to follow them.  In addition, it's virtually impossible to follow procedures if you aren't centrally located around an oval table.

KC

[pauld22]

[Nerre]

If a dedicated dealer accidentally picks up and deals from the wrong deck I'm not going to jump up and down and blame the incident on the fact that he was a dedicated dealer

If a dealer swaps decks in the middle of a hand, that dealer should never deal again.

The dealer shall keep the stub in his hand the whole hand, only when the river has been dealt shall the stub be dropped on top of the muck pile. Following that procedure makes it more or less impossible for the dealer to deal from the wrong deck.


Rule sets like RR or TDA have evolved during a long time, but none of them take into consideration a rotating deal or using two decks (other than having a spare deck in the well) because that's the way casinos have been playing for a long time. Introducing changes (like using two decks or rotating deal) mean you must look over the rules set and make new rules. Good rules. Rules that are fair to the game and consistent.

I have not yet seen a good rule set with rules handling two decks or rotating deal.

[Martini]

If a dedicated dealer accidentally picks up and deals from the wrong deck I'm not going to jump up and down and blame the incident on the fact that he was a dedicated dealer

If a dealer swaps decks in the middle of a hand, that dealer should never deal again.

The dealer shall keep the stub in his hand the whole hand, only when the river has been dealt shall the stub be dropped on top of the muck pile. Following that procedure makes it more or less impossible for the dealer to deal from the wrong deck.


Rule sets like RR or TDA have evolved during a long time, but none of them take into consideration a rotating deal or using two decks (other than having a spare deck in the well) because that's the way casinos have been playing for a long time. Introducing changes (like using two decks or rotating deal) mean you must look over the rules set and make new rules. Good rules. Rules that are fair to the game and consistent.

I have not yet seen a good rule set with rules handling two decks or rotating deal.

Agreed. The stub should stay in the dealer's hand and if that procedure is followed the wrong deck will not be used regardless if it is a rotating dealer or dedicated dealer or if the game uses one deck or two. The error happened because procedure was not followed, not because of the dealing fomat. If a passenger jet crashes on landing because the pilot neglected to put the landing gear down does that mean that passenger jets are unsafe and everyone should take small aircraft with fixed landing gear now? Of course not.

As for rule sets, Robert Ciaffone of Robert's Rules of Poker fame has published a RRoP for home games which specifically covers having a rotating deal.

http://pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRulesHome.htm

THE SHUFFLE AND CUT

1. The pack must be shuffled and cut before the cards are dealt. The recommended method to protect the integrity of the game is to have three people involved instead of only two. The dealer on the previous hand takes in the discards and squares up the deck prior to the shuffle. The player on the new dealer’s left shuffles the cards and then slides the pack to the new dealer, who gets them cut by the player on his right.

Additionally I have to think that there were/are rules for self deal card rooms such as the ones being depicted in this scene set in the 70's (http://youtu.be/KoUs-1jppUk) though surely there were self deal games going much further back than that.

[Nerre]

As far as I can see there is nothing in Robs home rules that cover irregularities that can occur due to a rotating deal.

What if the person shuffling the deck also cuts it? Shall the cut be re-done? Does the deck have to be shuffled again?

What if the person who is supposed to deal is not satisfied with how the person who is shuffling performed the shuffle?

I don't think it's hard to come up with a dozen of new situations that can occur with a rotating deal. If rules handling those situations were already formed, we would not have many topics like this.

[Martini]

As far as I can see there is nothing in Robs home rules that cover irregularities that can occur due to a rotating deal.

What if the person shuffling the deck also cuts it? Shall the cut be re-done? Does the deck have to be shuffled again?

What if the person who is supposed to deal is not satisfied with how the person who is shuffling performed the shuffle?

I don't think it's hard to come up with a dozen of new situations that can occur with a rotating deal. If rules handling those situations were already formed, we would not have many topics like this.

Reminds me of this scene:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/fgIBG8q1Gjc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/fgIBG8q1Gjc</a>

[Jambine]

......but what if you had a rotating deal with a table full of professional casino dealers?.......

Perhaps my post was a bit over the top.  My hame game is also (mostly) dealers.  Maybe I've come to take it for granted that there are plenty of competent dealers in the game........ but there is still only one deck on the table.