Cash game: 'Last aggressive action' rule clarification when river is checked

[TD_Host]

My question pertains to the 'last aggressive action' rule as it relates to showdown after the river in hold'em.

I was recently at the Silverton Casino poker room in Las Vegas, Nevada.

I was in a hand where (I was heads up) I was in late position and it was checked to me, I'd bet the flop, and a player in early position, a 'regular' in the poker room, called me.

The turn came, we both checked. The river came and we both checked again.

The 'regular' didn't want to show his hand.

The dealer then turned to me and insisted that *I* was required to show first, despite the fact that I was in late position. I said my opponent is in early position and closer to the button clockwise, therefore, he was obligated to show first.

After sincerely I questioned the dealer on this, and she became very irritated at me and then yelled 'FLOOR!!!"

The poker room manager came over and backed her up - in a belittling tone & manner, he says 'it doesn't matter that the turn and river were checked, you were the last aggressive action and must show first'. He went on to say that 'every place in vegas except the Mirage does it this way'.

"Really!!??" was my response.

Since I've not played at 'every other card room' in Vegas, I couldn't respond to that statement.

The way I read RROP, the nearest player clockwise is required to show first.

What is the standard rule in Vegas, does anyone know?

I've never heard of such a thing as happened.

[Martini]

First of all, OOP check/calls the Flop, checks the Turn, checks the River, and then you check behind? Betting the River avoids the whole issue.

I don't know how all the poker rooms in Las Vegas handle it but I'm skeptical that Mirage is the only place that follows RRoP's procedure in that situation. Then again, if the Floor was so specific about it that does lend more credibility to the statement. Regardless, you're bound by house rules of the place you're playing at. I find standoffs on the end to be a waste of everyone's time personally. If you want to claim the pot just show your hand, if you're good you'll rake the chips, if not, you'll see the other guys hand. Who cares what the losing hand is?

Also, despite RRoP stating that it goes in order from the button Bob Ciaffone thinks that the person who showed last agressive action should show first regardless of street.

[Flaming Frog Poker]

Just turn your hand over!  The goodwill you will lose by being a rule nit will end up costing you.

[TD_Host]

Just turn your hand over!  The goodwill you will lose by being a rule nit will end up costing you.

B.S. If I don't have to give information to my opponent, why should I?

If the rule is in fact that he was supposed to show or fold first, it is HIS responsibility to do so, PERIOD.

Martini: The reason it's important is that information is power in poker.

I didn't bet the river because I had AK, ace high.

The regular didn't want to show because he didn't want to give me information as to his play.

I only had ace high, and bet because I felt I had the best hand on the flop after he checked. But since I'd never played cards with him (or in that poker room) before, I could'nt be sure what he had.

It's important to me not to reveal information about my play strategy - unless I have to.

But this question isn't about strategy, and I digress to reply to you.

I'd like to know if anyone knows the rules in most Vegas casino poker rooms.

Now, can anyone answer my question, instead of criticizing my play?

[Martini]

Information is important in poker. Agreed. So is etiquette and calling the Floor over in that situation is excessive IMO.

Sorry that I don't have the information about how other casinos would rule in that situation though I also don't see what difference it would make since it's not going to change the house rule for the poker room you were in.

[Detroitdad]

Martini is correct on all accounts. He politely and correctly answered your post, and added in some additional information (surprisingly enough, thats what happens when you start a thread in a Poker Forum).

Honestly, if you came across at the poker table like your coming across here (a douche bag), then I can understand why the Poker room "belittled" you.

House Rules are House Rules. It doesn't really matter if Jack and Jill does it different. If your playing at Joes house, you play by Joes rules.

[TD_Host]

Martini is correct on all accounts. He politely and correctly answered your post, and added in some additional information (surprisingly enough, thats what happens when you start a thread in a Poker Forum).

Honestly, if you came across at the poker table like your coming across here (a douche bag), then I can understand why the Poker room "belittled" you.

House Rules are House Rules. It doesn't really matter if Jack and Jill does it different. If your playing at Joes house, you play by Joes rules.

I have no problem with Martini.

You OTOH have been reported for trolling, sir.

No, my post was NOT answered - by you OR by anyone else yet. Please read it carefully next time, or you look like a complete idiot. Your the second person in this thread to invoke name-calling, so I take the same liberty with a trolling MORON like you who doesn't bother to read simple English.

Regarding house rules, I respect the house rules -but I've also come across a handful of poker room dealers (and even one floor supervisor) that failed to interpret the rules correctly (several times, actually). In one case, I corrected them and they were grateful (they were requiring raises double the previous total bet, not raise by the amount of the previous raise). I know all the basic rules very well.

The simple fact of the matter is, I have played at several other poker rooms in Las Vegas besides the rude Silverton Poker Room, and none of them failed to follow RROP with respect to my question.

If you have nothing genuinely helpful to contribute that relates to my question, please get out of my thread, and start your own.

[austin5string]

Chill out, folks.

DD is not a trolling moron, he's one of the most tenured and respected members of this forum.  As is Martini, as is FFP (who is also a paid advertiser). 

Nobody need to be calling names.  Take a few deep breaths, and let's see if we can have a meaningful discussion.

~A5S

[Detroitdad]

Sorry bro, just calling it as I see it.

[Detroitdad]

And technically, if he "read" my post. I didn't call him any names. I said he's coming across as a dbag. Heck, he could be the nicest guy in the world. Who knows.....

Sorry, wife's been gone for a week and I'm drinking alone, lol. Damn this Oktoberfest is done good stuff!!!


GO TIGERS!!!!

[Martini]

@TD_Host
With all due respect, I'm not sure what you're looking for. If you've been to other poker rooms in Las Vegas which follow RRoP then the Floor's statement was incorrect. You're right, he's wrong. Why would you need to ask other people what rules are followed in other poker rooms if you already know that other casino's use RRoP? If you want to go back to the Silverton and tell the Floor that he was wrong then you should probably get copies of house rules from the other casinos and not people's opinions off of a forum, no?

[pauld22]

DD is one of the most tenured and respected members of this forum. 

God help us all....











































































































 

[nutN2Lewz]

...
Sorry, wife's been gone for a week and I'm drinking alone, lol.

The wife is away and you are drinking, the Lions are 5-0 and won on Monday Night Football, and the Tigers are in the playoffs and on tv almost every night. Shouldn't you be in a GOOD mood? Any one of those factors would be good enough for me.


The only Vegas casino where I remember this rule coming up was at the Imperial Palace - they used the RRoP procedure. It appears the Silverton does not. End of story.

Good luck, nutn

[NotFadeAway]

You OTOH have been reported for trolling, sir.

[KPrather]

Ooh, this is getting good. *grabs popcorn*

[bigstu]

 Everone is correct..... I prefer last action myself but if no one bets on the river the person closest the button shows first almost anywhere.  BUt is it worth slowing up the game (god forbid your on a time rake) over this! and yes both you and the first player are being d-bags over this mexican standoff and to force the dealer to call the floor over this!  Is it really worth the time!

Was it a case of house rules or regular favoritism who knows but really!!!!

We should really start a tread with bad floor decisions and angle shooting....!

[Wedge Rock]

To the OP, why does it matter what every other card room in Vegas except the Mirage does?  The only thing that matters is what the house you were playing in does.  If the Silverton Poker Room floor tells you that you must show, then you must show.  Absent proof of Silverton Poker Room rules to the contrary, your options are to show your hand or concede the pot.

After you do one of those, your options are to continue to play in the Silverton Poker Room, or to take your money to a card room that plays by the house rules you prefer.

I don't see the issue here.  You seem to be in a twist because the floor made a comment tangential to the issue that mentioned every card room in Vegas, and you disagree with that comment.  You might be right to disagree with that comment (you might not be), but either way, it has no effect on the floor's ruling or your options in the situation.

[Nerre]

One point is that if everybody checks on both the turn and the river it might be hard to remember who was aggressive last on the flop. That's why I think "first after the button" is the best rule, because you avoid discussions on who really was the last one do be aggressive.

[Dr. Neau]

I can't stand a controversial thread that I'm not in.

Remember is this: RROP is not law.  It's a bunch of stuff that "R" has gathered over his life and kindly thrown into a consumable document for us all.  It provides great guidelines, but it is not the rulebook that all must follow.

Also, RROP is not perfect.  You'll note that it is on version 11 (if not higher).

[Detroitdad]

I can't stand a controversial thread that I'm not in.

Remember is this: RROP is not law.  It's a bunch of stuff that "R" has gathered over his life and kindly thrown into a consumable document for us all.  It provides great guidelines, but it is not the rulebook that all must follow.

Also, RROP is not perfect.  You'll note that it is on version 11 (if not higher).

way to contribute..................

[pathand]

Also, RROP is not perfect.  You'll note that it is on version 11 (if not higher).

KC? KC? The good doctor is...well...uh...nevermind. 

[murrman]

Ooh, this is getting good. *grabs popcorn*

If Gobbs still posted here then we could break out the popcorn.

[Wedge Rock]

If TD_Host posted here anymore, we could keep this thread going...

Summary - TD_Host
Last Active:    Oct 11, 2011 at 22:08

[Flaming Frog Poker]

If TD_Host posted here anymore, we could keep this thread going...

Summary - TD_Host
Last Active:    Oct 11, 2011 at 22:08

You would never be able to convince him that he is wrong.  Poker needs to be fun if you want to average joe to want to play.  Rules nits make the game not fun though.  Who cares if its your turn to show your cards or not so just turn them over like you are proud to have them!

[Martini]

If TD_Host posted here anymore, we could keep this thread going...

Summary - TD_Host
Last Active:    Oct 11, 2011 at 22:08

You would never be able to convince him that he is wrong.  Poker needs to be fun if you want to average joe to want to play.  Rules nits make the game not fun though.  Who cares if its your turn to show your cards or not so just turn them over like you are proud to have them!

The perplexing thing though was that he was right about other casinos besides Mirage using RRoP so it's puzzling what the purpose of thread was about.

[sloth]

If I may hijack this thread..

Does anyone know why the Mirage was singled out? I know that nobody can say what the floor manager was thinking, but does the Mirage have a reputation for funny rules?