Must called player reveal his hand (heads up, not all in) in cash game? Tourney?

[TD_Host]

The question has come up at our home game (tournament):

When two players are heads up, and NOT all in, after the river bet:

When a player on the river is CALLED, must he be forced to reveal his hand and not allowed to muck (according to TDA Rules)?

The way I read the official TDA rules is that if the called player wants to muck and not contest the pot, it is his right. Is that interpretation correct?

Can anyone at the table then ask that the called player's hand be shown, or just the caller (according to TDA)? If he is asked, is he then required to table/show his cards?

What does RROP say for cash games (out of curiosity)?

[Martini]

According to RRoP in tournament play "34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete."

That rule does not apply to cash games.

Here is how I handle things for cash games: If a player is called they must either fold their hand or show their hand promptly.

By RRoP any player dealt in on a hand can request to see anyone else's hand. I don't enforce that. The intent is to catch cheating not satisfy curiosity. If someone believes that someone is cheating they can call the floor (me) and explain the situation and I will look at the hand to see if their theory is supported. This is is how the WPA rules worked and I think they handle it correctly.

I also disagree with the all in rule in tournaments. It is there supposedly for guarding against collusion but it is so easy to chip dump without going all in the rule is easily circumventable so it might as well not be there. Sure it's good for TV or whatever but 99+% of all games are not televised.

[TD_Host]

I think you misread my post. I'm specifically asking about hands that are not all in's.

[KPrather]

I also disagree with the all in rule in tournaments. It is there supposedly for guarding against collusion but it is so easy to chip dump without going all in the rule is easily circumventable so it might as well not be there. Sure it's good for TV or whatever but 99+% of all games are not televised.

And even for the <1% of games that are televised, the rule is not enforced properly a lot of the time.

TD_Host: If nobody is all in, nobody is compelled to show their cards. They may throw away their cards and forfeit the pot.

[Martini]

I think you misread my post. I'm specifically asking about hands that are not all in's.

The reason I included the reference to the rule is because that is where the notion that you need to show your hand probably came from.

I know of no rule which requires a player to show his hand as part of the play of hands whether they are all in or not. RRoP allows for a player to see a hand after it is over though. Keep in mind that there are exceptions and complications to a fully detailed response to your question but in a nutshell, no, a player does not need to show his hand unless involved in an all in hand during a tournament.

[TD_Host]

Martini: That's how I read it, also. However, there seems to be a wide array of opinions on whether or not a player who is called is required to show his hand or not - when asked by the caller, or even another player.

The way we've been doing it is that the hand is not required to be shown UNLESS collusion or some other problem is suspected and the TD agrees. Otherwise, the called player's hand is NOT shown even if another player (including the caller) asks. No exceptions.

We only require that the called player's hand be shown when two or more players are ALL IN and all action is completed.

The reason I asked the question is that the rules are not totally clear and there has been quite a bit of debate among some of our players who've played in the WSOP, etc.

But I'm pretty sure we're doing it 'right' at our games, despite the controversy.

[TD_Host]

I should say that my last post referred to tournaments, specifically.

In our cash games, we do allow the caller to request to see the opponents hand when called. But not in tournaments.

[Martini]

@TD_Host
You are correct about there not being a consensus.

In cash games there is often the argument of the caller claiming "I PAID to see his hand!" which conveniently ignores the fact that the person being called put just as much into the pot as the person calling so I dismiss that as a valid reason. Bottom line is that if someone folds their hand instead of showing why not just drag the chips instead of worrying what he had since he was clearly bluffing at the pot. And even worse, if you make him show what he thought was a bluff but actually ends up being the winning hand then you lose the pot.

[Detroitdad]

In a cash game at my house, the only person that needs to show their cards are the dude that wants to win the pot. The losing hand doesn't need to show.

You are allowed to request that the loser shows his hand, but if he folds, I won't require it unless we believe there is cheating involved.

If someone constantly insists to see the "Folded" hands, just to see what the cards are that were folded. Honestly, i would ask you to stop, or just not invite you again.

IMO, its poor ettiquette to ask to see the losing hand just for the purpose of seeing his cards for "information".

[figjam]

Cash game ... who cares.


Tourney ... should show.  Wouldn't want chip dumping to occur.