Really dirty angle shoot at the EPT final table

[William]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tkxcBy6js7s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tkxcBy6js7s</a>

[Jacks Up]

It's disgusting - but I think Thomas Kremser handled it very well.

I assume he can't be penalised because he hasn't actually broken a rule.

[pauld22]

If it had happened previously in the tournament, as they said, then they should have been able to penalize him.  Dirty POS.

Seemed to be handled well enough by TD and opponent.

[Martini]

First of all, the guy is an idiot. Not because of his angle shoot but because, as the player said in an interview later, he would have made more if he had bet more than the minimum that he was held to after his charade.

As for the play itself, I would not allow that to continue if I were TD. After it became a pattern (as it obviously had in this case since the TD was aware of it) then I would warn the player that he will not benefit from that move anymore and that he will need to be more careful about his intentions in a hand. The next time he makes that move his hand is dead.

[William]

I looked through the ruleset of the EPT, and there is no provision which allows a penalty for unfairly influencing another player.

I would personally have given him a missed round penalty for every recorded instance in this tournament. Assuming it's only two sofar, that means he sits out 10 hands and loses 200,000 chips in blinds and antes.

There is some debate out there if it was the right thing to force Freitez to min-raise. I personally believe it was, but there are a lot of people who think that he should've been allowed to raise any amount (and hopefully Yanayt can then find it in himself to fold).

[Milo]

Naah . . . dirtbag announced "Raise", so he has to be held to that action.  As for any penalties, most rules have a catch-all provision that states the decision of the TD is FINAL.   In this case I would have penalized him two orbits, and forced him to cluck like a chicken . . .

[Martini]

@William
The EPT rules (http://www.europeanpokertour.com/about/rules/rules2.html) state:

"Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as top priority in the decision making process. Unusual circumstances can, on occasion, dictate that the technical interpretation of the rules be ignored in the interest of fairness. The floor manager's decision is final."

And that'd be good enough for me.

You bring up a good point though since he did announce "raise" before the chips hit the felt he should be free to raise any amount but it would obviously be suspicious to "accidentally" announce a raise then put in anything more than a min-raise. Again, not only an angle shoot but a value-killing maneuver.

I've always thought that a missed orbit is a fairly toothless penalty. Killing his hand would be far more punitive than 200K in missed obligations for an orbit and it would remove any incentive for trying that again in the future.

There is of course the fringe case where letting the angle shooter raise actually punishes him more if Hero happened to have slow played a Set of Kings on the Flop and could get even more chips out of villain's maneuver. I'd even be tempted to check both player's hole cards before making a decision but I think the most straightforward way to handle it is to warn him then take direct action to remove any incentive to try that crap.

[Wedge Rock]

it would obviously be suspicious to "accidentally" announce a raise then put in anything more than a min-raise. Again, not only an angle shoot but a value-killing maneuver.

I don't know about that.  What about an all-in, to look like he is being forced to raise and now wants to protect a marginal hand.  Might work.  He got a call for a min. raise, so why not?

[austin5string]

Wow... what a chump... I would have probably ended up with a penalty on myself because I would have gone off on the guy.

[Martini]

it would obviously be suspicious to "accidentally" announce a raise then put in anything more than a min-raise. Again, not only an angle shoot but a value-killing maneuver.

I don't know about that.  What about an all-in, to look like he is being forced to raise and now wants to protect a marginal hand.  Might work.  He got a call for a min. raise, so why not?

Well I think that would clearly be suspicious as well especially since the TD mentioned that he has done this with big hands.

[Killingbird]

wow.  disgusting. 

[Wedge Rock]

it would obviously be suspicious to "accidentally" announce a raise then put in anything more than a min-raise. Again, not only an angle shoot but a value-killing maneuver.

I don't know about that.  What about an all-in, to look like he is being forced to raise and now wants to protect a marginal hand.  Might work.  He got a call for a min. raise, so why not?

Well I think that would clearly be suspicious as well especially since the TD mentioned that he has done this with big hands.

I was talking about it being a value-killing maneuver.  I'm not sure he would've extracted more, but his min raise was called, so I guess its possible.

To me, the value of a min. raise is not worth the reputation he's earning.

[Martini]

it would obviously be suspicious to "accidentally" announce a raise then put in anything more than a min-raise. Again, not only an angle shoot but a value-killing maneuver.

I don't know about that.  What about an all-in, to look like he is being forced to raise and now wants to protect a marginal hand.  Might work.  He got a call for a min. raise, so why not?

Well I think that would clearly be suspicious as well especially since the TD mentioned that he has done this with big hands.

I was talking about it being a value-killing maneuver.  I'm not sure he would've extracted more, but his min raise was called, so I guess its possible.

To me, the value of a min. raise is not worth the reputation he's earning.

Oh, I get it. Yeah, he could have raised more than min...but he could have done that without his charade anyway. Not only is it not worth it for the reputation but not for the chips either.