WSOP ME final table: 9 or 10.

[KPrather]

One thing I've always wondered, and just thought about today. If the players of the Main Event consolidate to one table with 10 players, why is it not considered the final table until 9-handed?

[William]

All tables are played 9-handed, and the payout structure is based on 9-handed tables as well.
They consolidate to one table at 10 players so the last elimination has faced off against the entire November Nine.

Payout structure:

Table 1:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th

Table 2:
10th-12th
13th-15th
16th-18th

Table 3:
19th-27th

Table 4:
28th-36th

etc.

[Wedge Rock]

We always form at 9, though.

That way, the last two tables both play 5-handed until the tenth elimination.

The way the WSOP does it, one table plays 5-handed and one plays 6-handed.  At the elimination, they combine.  I guess it just a way of getting less short-handed play.

[stooks99]

I hate the 10 handed FT idea of the WSOP ME.  It's the primary reason that every year, the November 9 show up with shallow stacks and huge blinds.  They should just play two tables of 5 like normal tournaments.  I know it makes for more dramatic poker to have everyone at one table, but it's a fold-a-thon for hours every year, which just ticks time off the clock. 

[OldWestGambler]

"The November 9" sounds better than "The November 10"
 

[Martini]

I always assumed it had to to with trying to make more money from television revenues.

I'm with everyone else here who is just trying to have a well run tourney and play down to two tables of five then form the final table at nine handed.

[holdemholmes]

I hate the 10 handed FT idea of the WSOP ME.  It's the primary reason that every year, the November 9 show up with shallow stacks and huge blinds.  They should just play two tables of 5 like normal tournaments.  I know it makes for more dramatic poker to have everyone at one table, but it's a fold-a-thon for hours every year, which just ticks time off the clock. 

This is a very good point, and I had never thought about it this way until now. Although i think people would still try to wait it out, things happen much faster 5 handed than they do 10 handed.

[stooks99]

I hate the 10 handed FT idea of the WSOP ME.  It's the primary reason that every year, the November 9 show up with shallow stacks and huge blinds.  They should just play two tables of 5 like normal tournaments.  I know it makes for more dramatic poker to have everyone at one table, but it's a fold-a-thon for hours every year, which just ticks time off the clock. 

This is a very good point, and I had never thought about it this way until now. Although i think people would still try to wait it out, things happen much faster 5 handed than they do 10 handed.

Yeah, it's not even close, IMO.  People would be forced to play 5 handed. Even with a huge bubble that people would tighten up on, we're talking, literally, twice as fast to getting down to 9.

[William]

I think another consideration is not to finish with a November 8. When playing on two 5-handed tables there is a chance that two players are eliminated before the tables are consolidated. In 10-handed that's less likely to happen since, when there is an all-in and a call, others will probably fold and stay out of the way.

[Wedge Rock]

Hand-for-hand at two 5-handed tables would be equally as boring as a fold-fest.

[stooks99]

Hand-for-hand at two 5-handed tables would be equally as boring as a fold-fest.

Even though I disagree, boring has nothing to do with it.  It's simple semantics;  10 handed play cuts deeper into the structure and takes a ton of play off the final table.  Last year, it took something like 6  hours to lose the 10th guy...that's 3 levels of play taken out.

[William]

What you should keep in mind is that there's a whole lot more to consider when organizing an event for 7000 players, to be broadcast on TV, than there is to creating a home game for 30 players.

Having a final showdown with 10 players creates more exciting TV then having 2 5-handed tables. Probably not when you're watching it live, but it will be once it's been edited. It's now down to one more elimination, and you have all players at a single table so you don't have to switch over all the time. They'll probably show 2 or 3 hands from the 10-handed fold fest.

Furthermore, they're advertising there will be a November Nine well before the tournament even starts. You have to ensure that there will be a November Nine in the first place. Consolidating at 10 players pretty much guarantees that.

When you've got the Final Table it takes 2-3 days to go from 9 players down to 1. All that will be crammed into two hours of coverage, showing maybe 10-15 hands per episode. The end result are shows with lots of action, and lots of excitement. Watching the real thing live will always be far more tedious.

[Martini]

...Watching the real thing live will always be far more tedious.

One person's tedious is another person's interesting. Live coverage conveys so much more of the full story that the television coverage doesn't come close to. It's like the difference between watching an entire movie versus just the trailer.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

It's more exciting to have one table of ten than to be switching back and forth, at least I imagine, for most viewers.  Personally, I love it and think it's the best way by far, but I know that others will have differing opinions.

...Watching the real thing live will always be far more tedious.

One person's tedious is another person's interesting. Live coverage conveys so much more of the full story that the television coverage doesn't come close to. It's like the difference between watching an entire movie versus just the trailer.

A world of this.  I've spent about all my free time watching it live (or watching it taped on espn3.com) and it's just incredible to see every hand and truly see what's going on and how the table is playing out.  It couldn't be more exciting.

[William]

Martini & TTGG, I'm with you guys 100%, but for some people it might not be as enjoyable because most hands just aren't that exciting.

[Martini]

OK, I've mulled this over and my preference for the WSOP ME FT would be to just play the tourney like normal. If you have a nine max format then that means two tables of five going hand for hand then form the final table of 9 (further preference to just play on as in don't wait a few months but that's a different issue). If you insist on forming a final table of 10 then I'd have all 10 players move on to November.

@William
I think we're all in agreement that *some* viewers want to see everything and *other* viewers want to just see the most notable hands. This was why I couldn't understand WSOP/ESPN, after creating their November Nine Nonsense, originally not televising the FT action live as well as the highlight reel version. It's not like they sequestered everyone involved until airing the edited version. Anyone who wants to know (plus plenty of people who don't want to know) find the results plastered all over the web so it's not a mystery how the ME turns out.

[William]

Postponing the final table is also a broadcasting consideration. It also adds the possibility for the players to acquire sponsors, and get better acquainted with the other players since they have to show up for publicity events a few times throughout those months. That gives a better dynamic at the table too I think. Besides, when you reach the final table you'll have played at least six 10 hour days back to back. Getting a break from it all to get your act together is not a bad idea either .

Broadcasting considerations are that they have the time to edit footage of 4 Day One's, 2 Day Two's, Day 3, Day 4, Day 5, Day 6, Day 7, and Day 8 into a comprehensive whole as a lead up to the Final Nine. The coverage of the November Nine days usually is shown the week after it's been played.

[Jaxen]

I think that combining the final 10 at one table, but calling the final 9 the "official" final table, is just the WSOP's standard operating procedure. They handle all events that employ a 9-player table (i.e. Hold'em and full-handed Omaha) that way, not just the Main Event.

I recall an event a few years ago where Hellmuth was about to break the WSOP record for final tables. There were 10 players left and were all at one table, but Phil didn't "officially" make the final table until one more player was eliminated.

[stooks99]

I recall an event a few years ago where Hellmuth was about to break the WSOP record for final tables. There were 10 players left and were all at one table, but Phil didn't "officially" make the final table until one more player was eliminated.

2005 or 2006 PLO I think

EDIT:  2005 $5k PLO w/ rebuys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_World_Series_of_Poker_results#Event_27

[Milo]

Plus, making everyone wait or the FT to occur in November helps out the tourism, as they all bring their cheering sections (rooms get filled, as do restaurants, show theatres, slots, etc.), the lookie loos come in (or back, as the case may be), and it gives everyone involved a chance to score some extra sponsorship $$$.   Everybody wins . . .


except viewers who have to wait to see who the champ will be.  The only dislike I have with the November Nine concept is that poker tournaments are about stamina, as well.  Yes there are several double digit days worth of poker, but that is part of the test.  The delay makes the Final Table virtually a second, separate, tournament.   A SnG, if you will, for all the marbles . . .