PokerStars, FullTilt and Absolute shutdown by FBI?? uh oh.

[KingRichard]

Just saw this... pokerstars.com (the website) is down.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2011/04/three-largest-online-poker-sites-indicted-and-shut-down-by-fbi.html

[sharkyspoker]

Pokerstars won't let me play ring games due to government regulations in my area. I quickly cashed out. Lets see if I get the money.

[Buzzerbeater]

I don't have enough in my account for FT's minimum cashout. 

[sharkyspoker]

I also don't have enough to cash out at FT, but they are open and letting me play.

[TJCOgators]

Full Tilt will be shut down by tonight.  Just turned my .10 win from a free roll into over $100 today.  Took me months to do this because I would transfer to buddies and play baby stakes.  I processed a cashout on stars.....hopefully I see something from that work.

[NotFadeAway]

I've got the same message.  This is insane and I hope I can at least cashout if I need to.
By the way, #$%^ the anti-freedom brigade in this country.  I don't just mean the politicians that work to limit our freedoms, but the people who support them too.

[hayjamawas]

this is absolute garbage...i dont see a court upholding this...PPA should be all over this ASAP and get the sites back up for us

[NotFadeAway]

this is absolute garbage...i dont see a court upholding this...PPA should be all over this ASAP and get the sites back up for us

PPA is useless.  The bad part is that we have no advocate who can speak for us.  Anti-online poker interests have money, lobbyists, and bought politicians, but all we've got is the PPA, and they haven't managed to accomplish anything in our favor.

[Buzzerbeater]

I don't even like playing online, but I kept my money on there because every once in a while I could go on and play a SnG or play cash for a while.  Lot's of pissed of people today, I'm guessing.

[stooks99]

I have $5.34 that I'll xfer to anyone who can play on stars.  I can't do anything with it.  Holla!

[johnbaker3]

Dear Friends:

This looks pretty serious.....

It isn't a nice thing to watch your friends going through total addiction withdrawal; the sweats, the profanity, the denial....

It will get worse in the days ahead as the horror story spreads to all the part time players....

Is there a PPA?  Poker Players Anonymous?

Hi: I'm John and I'm a pokerholic.....I have been sober for 12 hours.....

John B  

[Buzzerbeater]

Gambling is illegal and immoral and you will go to hell for it.  Now if anyone needs me, I'll be at 7-11 picking up lottery tickets on my way to church bingo.

[NotFadeAway]

Gambling is illegal and immoral and you will go to hell for it.  Now if anyone needs me, I'll be at 7-11 picking up lottery tickets on my way to church bingo.

+1
Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.  Secondly, the idea that it's 'immoral' or whatever is the biggest crock of @#$% imaginable.  I mean, it's not government's place to legislate morality.  Of course, it's not just the backward politicians that bother me.  Mostly it's the backward people that support the stripping of our freedoms.

[hayjamawas]

[
+1
Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.  Secondly, the idea that it's 'immoral' or whatever is the biggest crock of @#$% imaginable.  I mean, it's not government's place to legislate morality.  Of course, it's not just the backward politicians that bother me.  Mostly it's the backward people that support the stripping of our freedoms.

Post of the day
 

[Milo]

This is not about gambling . . . this is about the government not getting it's cut.  More accurately, it is about the US government not getting a piece of the action.  Stupid thing is, it is their own damn fault.  Most of these sites would LOVE to be registered in the US, and the regulation that would entail.  They would actually make more money, because their would not be the suspicion of, "where is my $$$, and will I be able to get it back?", that still persists.

Cashed out my P*'s $$$, but only have about $25.00 on FTP.  I expect to clear a bonus tomorrow for another $25.00.  Wonder if I'll get it.

[hayjamawas]

can anyone get on 2p2 right now...i know that site has had an insane amount of traffic today...i cant get on ATM

[Martini]

Ya see?! Online poker was rigged after all and now the government is going to shut it down. Finally!

[stooks99]

Like Milo said, this has nothing to do with right and wrong.  We may not like it, but the fact is, Pokerstars and friends have been breaking the law since 2006.  We all knew that this could happen in the back of our heads. 

If I had to guess.............. I would say this is a total revamping that could be compared to demolishing old Vegas casinos to make room for new blood.  B/M casinos and other similar places have funds and power, online poker does not have power.  It may take a while, but online poker will be back, almost certainly with Live Casino backing. 

[William]

If anybody wants to cash out, transfer your money to me (omahaprotege on P*) and PM me the amount and your Paypal e-mailaddress.
I'll make sure you'll get it asap.

[pauld22]

If anybody wants to cash out, transfer your money to me (omahaprotege on P*) and PM me the amount and your Paypal e-mailaddress.
I'll make sure you'll get it asap.

As far as I know we can't transfer either. 

[holdemholmes]

If anybody wants to cash out, transfer your money to me (omahaprotege on P*) and PM me the amount and your Paypal e-mailaddress.
I'll make sure you'll get it asap.

As far as I know we can't transfer either. 

I requested a cashout, and haven't gotten a denial...(yet). Has anyone tried to cash out and been denied?

[hayjamawas]

nope...not allowed to transfer funds...this sucks...luckily i have some $ on carbon poker that is still letting me play

[Milo]

US players cannot withdraw, transfer, etc.   Sites are claiming all $$$ is secure, but I am willing to bet that US players will not see a dime from any of these sites.  The funds will be siezed by the US government under asset forfeiture legislation, if not RICO statutes.  Sorry, but if you had money on these sites, you do not have it anymore.  Remember this the next time you cast a ballot.

Any side bets on when they go after the on-line bookmakers?

[johnbaker3]

Hey:

You know what really sucks?

If you have accumulated FPP's on Poker Stars, you can't use them to play any FreeRolls if there is a cash prize, even if it is provided by Poker Stars....

I guess that all "home games" are included which means HPT's Freerolls are now off limits too...

Is this a great country or what?

John B  

NFA: I checked, and FFP Freerolls are affected; no US players allowed, only PlayMoney is available...

[NotFadeAway]

Hey:

You know what really sucks?

If you have accumulated FPP's on Poker Stars, you can't use them to play any FreeRolls if there is a cash prize, even if it is provided by Poker Stars....

I guess that all "home games" are included which means HPT's Freerolls are now off limits too...

Is this a great country or what?

John B   

HPT Freerolls should still be playable.  The other 'home game' that I'm a member of had freerolls last night (and are having more tonight) so there's no reason HPT games should be affected (provided they're freerolls, of course.)

And to answer your last question: no.

[hayjamawas]

lets all move to canada!!!!

[hayjamawas]

carbon poker's traffic is nearly double tonight than what ive ever seen it...i wonder why that is...lol

[William]

I'm guessing the other pokersites aren't really complaining.

[Milo]

lets all move to canada!!!!

I live in the GTA . . . so long as you chip in for groceries, you can have the couch.  One month limit, however an extra week or two could be negotiated.

[pauld22]

I'm guessing the other pokersites aren't really complaining.

Pretty good piece that touches on this.

http://www.billrini.com/2011/04/16/fallout-full-tilt-pokerstars-pullout/

[3ball]

I'm guessing the other pokersites aren't really complaining.

Pretty good piece that touches on this.

http://www.billrini.com/2011/04/16/fallout-full-tilt-pokerstars-pullout/

Very solid, indeed.  Hopefully this gets us to where we need to be so we can all play again, and soon.

[Wedge Rock]

Didn't read any of the linked stories, but two major tangential effects....

1.) The WSOP.  The big 3 were sending 500 - 1,000 players a year.  Numbers will be down this year for sure.  And all that revenue spent on other "niche" sports (like the MMA) will be gone.

2.) The only possible good thing is that HSP may finally straighten out of have the most entertaining players (as opposed to being limited to players from the sponsor card room).  But then again, without PS money (sponsorship and ad revenue), HSP might not come back at all. *

* - Which is ironic, because all those online card room always advertise, "Play now for free" and "xxxxxxx.net is not a gambling site. And now that the federal government is taking the gambling possibility out of the equation, it seems hypocritical for these sites to stop advertising.  But we all know the truth...despite what they said, the cardrooms were never advertising to attract more free players.

[Dr. Neau]

Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.

No...if it's done my means that isn't easily trackable for tax purposes, then it's illegal.

Remember: Every single transaction that takes place, including giving your kid $2 for a tooth, is taxable by law.

[NotFadeAway]

Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.

No...if it's done my means that isn't easily trackable for tax purposes, then it's illegal.

Remember: Every single transaction that takes place, including giving your kid $2 for a tooth, is taxable by law.

It could be easily trackable for tax purposes though.  Players could have to have taxes automatically taken out whenever they cash out.  Also, I wasn't just referring to online poker.  It bothers me that here in Georgia, for example, there are no casinos, but there is a mismanaged state lottery.  I don't know why backward people want to keep the rest of us from gambling, but it annoys me a ton.  Plus, there would be such an influx of tax money (as well as a lot of jobs added) by building casinos here.  Of course, backwardness and corruption are a dangerous combination, and it leads to events like what happened Friday.

[hayjamawas]

how many of you are in members of the PPA  lots of good ways they are posting on 2p2 about ways to help

[pauld22]

Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.

No...if it's done my means that isn't easily trackable for tax purposes, then it's illegal.

Remember: Every single transaction that takes place, including giving your kid $2 for a tooth, is taxable by law.

Damn, $2?  I'm sending my kids' teeth to you.....

[Flaming Frog Poker]

Seriously, this is something that makes me soooooooo mad.  First of all, the government can run a lottery and it's perfectly legal and fine, but if gambling is done by other means it's immoral.

No...if it's done my means that isn't easily trackable for tax purposes, then it's illegal.

Remember: Every single transaction that takes place, including giving your kid $2 for a tooth, is taxable by law.

Damn, $2?  I'm sending my kids' teeth to you.....

I just had that same discussion with a neighbor a few weeks ago.  My kids get $5 a tooth and $20 for the first one.  Her kids get 25 cents a tooth.  I don't think the kids have ever compared tooth fairy fees but that would be fun to listen to.

[holdemholmes]

Stars just released a statement saying that they have been given permission from the US government to pay us our cashout requests, and that they will be processed asap. A bit of good news, finally.

[Wedge Rock]

FTP is also returning US players money...

Two of the three online poker sites shut down by the government last week have cut a deal to return players' money, the Justice Department in New York said today.

The agreements allow for PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker to use the pokerstars.com and fulltiltpoker.com domain names to facilitate the withdrawal of U.S. players' funds held in accounts with the companies, according to the statement.

"No individual player accounts were ever frozen or restrained, and each implicated poker company has at all times been free to reimburse any player's deposited funds," Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharra said in a statement. "In fact, this office expects the companies to return the money that U.S. players entrusted to them, and we will work with the poker companies to facilitate the return of funds to players, as today's agreements with PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker demonstrate."

While only two of the three companies were named in the announcement today, the US Attorney's office said that "the government stands to enter the same agreement with Absolute Poker if it so chooses."

Under the deal, PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker agreed that "they would not allow for, facilitate, or provide the ability for players located in the United States to engage in playing online poker for 'real money' or any other thing of value."

Last week, the Justice Department filed a complaint for money laundering, fraud, and violating the 2006 Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act against 11 individuals who run PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker.

After the shutdown Friday, Matt Livingston, a professional poker player in Las Vegas, said he was "devastated."

Livingston, 28, said he and his wife will most likely not be able to move to Colorado from Las Vegas as planned this year if the poker domains are permanently closed. Their offer for their dream home had been accepted and they were hoping to move closer to their family. Livingston, whose income has come solely from poker, mostly online, would have been able to still support his family in Colorado, miles away from major casinos.

Livingston has been playing professionally since August 2008 after he quit his job as a structural engineer. He played exclusively on Full Tilt Poker and had over $40,000 tied up on that site when it shut down.

Since the sites have been closed, Livingston said he has been spending days and evenings at Las Vegas casinos, including at the Bellagio Hotel.

After hearing that he may be able to retrieve his $40,000, Livingston he was "still disappointed" the sites are shut down, "but it alleviates a good chunk of stress."

"At least we don't have our money tied up for no reason," Livingston said. "I'm still unemployed I guess."

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/shutdown-poker-sites-return-poker-players-money/story?id=13412260

[Buzzerbeater]

My question is, does the $100 minimum still apply of FT?  If so, I guess I'll have to find someone I can trust to transfer my money to for the cashout.

[Flaming Frog Poker]

My question is, does the $100 minimum still apply of FT?  If so, I guess I'll have to find someone I can trust to transfer my money to for the cashout.

No one knows for sure (Full Tilt included) but there is no way they will enforce that $100 limit.  I would wager that the average bankroll there is around $25.

[OldWestGambler]

Great thread.

Well, at least the DOJ and the biggest representatives in the industry are in rooms talking it out right now. I'm sure it's all being done by lawyers but we all know that everyone in those "talks" is probably playing live (possible illegal) poker one night a week at least.

Since 2005 live poker games in my city Portland, OR have went from being played in back rooms, garages and warehouses to legal card rooms all over the city. There was a little known stipulation in the city law that eventually everyone caught onto. As long as the house doesn't take a rake or is in no way profiting from the games then live money poker is legal. Now there's card rooms all over the city.

I'm just hoping that this crackdown of online poker doesn't somehow lead to our city deciding they want to change their minds about the freedom to play live poker here. BTW, high stakes and cash games are still frowned upon. I think it has to be tourney style and there's a limit to the amount of the buyin I believe ($100 is my guess). At least that's what I get from looking at the schedules on the card rooms' web sites.

So yeah Portland is quickly earning the monicker of Poker City. Crossing my fingers that won't change.

[nutN2Lewz]

...
Since 2005 live poker games in my city Portland, OR have went from being played in back rooms, garages and warehouses to legal card rooms all over the city. There was a little known stipulation in the city law that eventually everyone caught onto. As long as the house doesn't take a rake or is in no way profiting from the games then live money poker is legal. Now there's card rooms all over the city.
...

So how do these poker rooms earn a profit? Selling food and alcohol? Isn't that profiting from the games?

Good luck, nutn

[KPrather]

So how do these poker rooms earn a profit? Selling food and alcohol? Isn't that profiting from the games?

I imagine the argument could be made that the food and alcohol would be sold with or without the games, and it's direct profit that is forbidden. Just talking ex rectum, but I imagine that to be the case.

[OldWestGambler]

So how do these poker rooms earn a profit? Selling food and alcohol? Isn't that profiting from the games?

I imagine the argument could be made that the food and alcohol would be sold with or without the games, and it's direct profit that is forbidden. Just talking ex rectum, but I imagine that to be the case.

Correct. It's direct profit they frown upon like rake or any system that would allow the house to take any money from the table.

Anyone can get what's called a social gaming license.

In order to generate funds for the club they skirt the issue of rake etc. by asking for membership fees All the poker rooms are considered social clubs and are allowed to charge membership fees. Non-members pay a certain amount to play games at the establishments (non-member fee). So a player generally pays for their buy-in and pays the non-member fee to play cards in the club usually $10 per game. Monthly memberships are offered at discount rates for players who play frequently. These funds I believe can only be used to pay for rent, utilities, maintenance, equipment, etc. That frees the club from the hassle of a lot of overhead.

If the club can gain a liquor license and serve food this allows them to earn real profit from those services. And generally since they are open all day and late into the evening this can add up at the end of the month.

One other thing that is strange though is that since the clubs cannot profit in any way from the game itself dealers cannot be paid employees. They must volunteer. The dealer can play while they are dealing if they want. And at the end of the game they are allowed to accept a tip from the winners.

Portland Players Club is a popular destination. You can google it. Look at their schedule. They're also on facebook. There's a few other relatively simlar clubs you can also see on google and they just keep opening up all over the city.

A lot of the strip clubs are beginning to catch on as well.
Lucky Devil's Lounge in southeast Portland offers chips at the bar and you pay for the rack and give them your driver's license just like you would do for a rack of balls in a pool room. They usually have a dealer who sits around waiting for players to show up. Their system is run more like a cash game though so I'm not sure how they skirt that issue.

In fact the State of Oregon doesn't allow gaming at all unless it's on a reservation but it defers to cities to offer their own policing of their citizens for social gaming. So there are a number of Oregon cities that are offering the same thing as Portland like Corvallis (home of the Oregon State Beavers - go beavs).

All of this has happened within the last four years. I remember trying to find a real game in Portland around 2005 and the only thing you could find were free tournaments that offered prizes and swag to the winners. No money was allowed on or around the tables. I remember I used an old slug with a hole in it once as a card cover and the tournament director came over and asked me to remove my coin from the table. I had to explain that it wasn't a coin. That it went from that kind of conservative attitude to the current state of affairs is so fascinating.

Sorry for the long post. Portland's a great place to live if you like beer, coffee, poker, nature and porn, lol. Oh and no sales tax.

[holdemholmes]

Sorry for the long post. Portland's a great place to live if you like beer, coffee, poker, nature and porn, lol. Oh and no sales tax.

Apparently I live on the wrong side of the country....Portland here I come.

On a related note, Stars sent me and email today and said that they were setting up the ability to process the cashouts to the US residents and will alert all of us in the US when this is available.

[3ball]

Sorry for the long post. Portland's a great place to live if you like beer, coffee, poker, nature and porn, lol. Oh and no sales tax.

Portland here I come.

+1

[Buzzerbeater]

So how do these poker rooms earn a profit? Selling food and alcohol? Isn't that profiting from the games?

I imagine the argument could be made that the food and alcohol would be sold with or without the games, and it's direct profit that is forbidden. Just talking ex rectum, but I imagine that to be the case.

Sorry for the long post. Portland's a great place to live if you like beer, coffee, poker, nature and porn, lol. Oh and no sales tax.

Oregon.  The New Hampshire of the west!

[OldWestGambler]

So how do these poker rooms earn a profit? Selling food and alcohol? Isn't that profiting from the games?

I imagine the argument could be made that the food and alcohol would be sold with or without the games, and it's direct profit that is forbidden. Just talking ex rectum, but I imagine that to be the case.

Sorry for the long post. Portland's a great place to live if you like beer, coffee, poker, nature and porn, lol. Oh and no sales tax.

Oregon.  The New Hampshire of the west!

 

[aa889d]

Its just your friendly big government making way for the B&M companies in the US to take over the industry once they push through the legalization / regulation and of course TAXATION for online play in the US.

If I'm Harrah's, MGM, or another big player in the B&M gaming busienss and I'm footing the bill to push legalization legislation in the US, I'd want to know the big boys off their online monopoly too.  Less competition = easier profit margins when I enter the game.  Especially since I'll be sharing the rake with the same government that pushed out my competition.

Its a win-win for everybody.... oh, except for the innovators that started the whole sector and the poor saps that got caught with real $$ on the line when the DOJ decided to hold their money hostage.