Is this Hand a cooler or did I screw something up?

[whipsawmike]

I play in a lot of one or two table sit and go's with ok success, but I don't have a lot of experience in multi-player/day tournaments.  I won a sit to a 2k buy in at the Borgota Winter Open which was a two day tournament with about 200 players.
You start with 20k in chips, and by fifth blind level I am doing ok - about 27k.  Seeing some hands, but also mixing up my play well and stealing a couple of pots.  Blinds were 100/200, 25 ante and I am in 5th position looking down at q-10 suited and decide to take a stab at it.  With no one calling, I make it 400 to go and get called by two other players and both blinds.    No bad players here - as far as I can tell.   Flop comes 10-10-8 with two hearts. 
Great but tough flop.  Blinds check, for some reason I decide to bet 1100/ or about 2/3 pot.  Everyone folds except small blind.  Nextt card - K hearts.   SB checks, I check thinking I am beat and pissed I didn't didn't bet more.  Next card q of hearts - I hit the boat.  SB bets 3k, I immediately put him on the flush or maybe two eights for the lower full, and I bet 7k.  He reshoves all in for another 9.5k...I call only to see the K-10 full.
I was toast after this, and didn't last through to next blind level.  Was this hand a cooler - or could I have done something different?  Laying down his all in - I just couldn't do it and not sure many people could.  But maybe I am wrong.  It helps to about it.

[Martini]

Strategy-wise I'd say you can start by folding QT pre-flop. Other than that you can file this under the bad beat section.

[holdemholmes]

I'm with Martini on this one...I think folding is best, and a min raise seems like a bad play to me....maybe raise a little more if you're going to play the hand? As far as how it turned out, not much you can do....these coolers happen once in a while.

[whipsawmike]

I don't see anything wrong with playing speculative hands once in awhile early in a tournament especially if you are first one in and you have over 100bb.   I think one thing I could have done differently, is after he bet 3k on river, I shove and put him on deciding if I have the better hand.  I don't see how he lays down k-10, but maybe. 

[Martini]

I don't see anything wrong with playing speculative hands once in awhile early in a tournament especially if you are first one in and you have over 100bb.   I think one thing I could have done differently, is after he bet 3k on river, I shove and put him on deciding if I have the better hand.  I don't see how he lays down k-10, but maybe. 

If you really don't see anything wrong with playing speculative hands then I guess that answers your original question.

As for shoving on the River, we call that the info-shove: put all your chips in to see if you're beat. That really is a suboptimal play.

[Jaxen]

I can rationalize the play if he was the big stack at the table and was playing the role of bully. At 25/100/200 with 8-9 players there's 500 or 525 in the pot before a card is dealt. Why not stick a raise in there to try to be the first into the pot to take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's too early in the tourney to do that probably, and a min raise often won't accomplish that (maybe K-10 doesn't call for 550), but hey, the guy won the entry and was essentially freerolling.

[luckystraights]

I'm reading this and tbh I'm in total shock, am I being extra dumb today, or do we not have 100 big blinds, with ante's in play?

If so, this seems absurd to fold pre, unless your UTG or getting 3b a ton, etc. What are you people smoking?

[William]

Apparently you should never play drawing hands like suited connectors or suited one-gappers. And you should never move all-in on a super wet flush board with a full-house.

In all honesty, I think you played the hand well. You bet when you were likely ahead, and checked when you were likely behind. The push could easily have been made by an Ace high flush, and frankly not calling that with a full house would be silly. There weren't a lot of hands that beat you, and the other player wasn't very likely to have any of those considering how he played it.

If you want to know what you could've done to prevent your loss I guess you could've made a bigger bet before the flop. Say 5x the BB. KTo is likely to fold that.

[whipsawmike]

I think if I had x3 preflop, probably get the same callers and, maybe one less, and might still call.  x5 - maybe not, but in reading Kill  Everyone  they describe this exact play I made once in awhile.  And in fact they suggest calling raises with speculative hands in position if less than 5% of stack, or out of position less than 3%. 

I think this hand was just a cooler...but it still smarts. 

[luckystraights]

fwiw I don't play tourney's, tho I know a lot of people who do, and most througt hellish swings seem to make good money doing it, most seem to suggest there are two styles to tourney's.

play very very tight until blinds are big or ante's kick in, which

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allows you to move up the money, maybe final table

play much looser, especially early when the SPR's are so big and the filed is full of fish to accumulate a worthwhile stack

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which allows you to go home without investing too much time, or make the final table with a good shot of winning the event

there is probably an ideal style for everyones personality, but sticking to one just because its an old poker tale, or because some book written several years ago by one player said it was the way to go is dumb.

Hands like these (QTs) flop big and make good showdown value hands when played well. You also dominate a lot of hands most people, or fish at least will never dream of folding, especially this deep in a tournament (97s, 56s, etc). You don't want to overplay it, your looking for an okay hand to get to showdown with or a big hand to try and double up on or win a big pot. You flopped a big hand and happened to be unlucky enough to run into one of several of the few hands that beat you, thats poker and thats life, changing your entire pre-flop strategy based on this one hand, although often advocated would be results orrientated and foolish imho.

[luckystraights]

back to the hand, which tbh I didn't bother reading past the flop, I mean com'n trips ship it amirite lol

so, lets digest a few things.

1. How competetnt are your competition, i think you suggested there good, but a good player won't shove a flush after a bet and a raise on a paired board, ussually?

2. How does he view you, are you aggressive, bluffing a good amount, do you expect him to view you as raising the river with a flush?

The point I'm perhaps failing to make here is that, if he views you as solid and he's solid himself, when he bets the river, lets say he has some flushes, low full, top full and the odd Tx hand that maybe he's blocking / vb'ing with, you can't raise for value, because typically his shoving range will have you crushed, but lol pot odds and I has a boat mentalitiy means your calling and putting your tourney at risk, and more so because assuming he views you as solid he's probably folding flushes to your river raise, so there really isn't any value to be had.

With the risk of going over my own head, you can only raise the very top of your range (KT or better) on the river vs a solid opponent or the very bottom (AhA perhaps), because he'll fold a lot of worse, but will likely only continue with better to your raise and if he's bluffing he'll obviously fold to your riase. There may be some image or history that might make a river raise and a call of madatory, i.e if you've been bluff raisisng the river a lot, tho even then villains hands that you beat should only bet / call the river.

So if I'm being critical at any point, its that the river raise on your part is bad, essentially because flushes will b/f or c/c the river not b/shove, so we beat the low full and thats hit on the river, but loose to top full so here after building a big pot I'm honestly fine calling the river.

[stooks99]

Pre-flop:  I don't think folding this hand is bad, but I don't see anything wrong with opening with it.  I do, however, dislike the min-raise.  With stacks this deep, go ahead and 2.5x or 3x it.  

Flop:  Bet.

Turn:  I hate the check.  You're hand is pretty disguised, and you're letting random 1 heart hands draw for free.  The only way I'm checking here is if I somehow have the Qh, which I know you don't because you're suited.  Checking here is bad, but not atrocious...but pretty bad.

River:  Go broke.

[whipsawmike]

I think lucky straights analysis could be right - but when you are in the heat of the moment - very hard to just call that bet.   For one thing, you are staring at a monster.   Plus, I totally discounted him playing kk, qqs as he didn't re-shove pre-flop, which I think he should have done given the callers.   Very hard to put someone specifically on K-10, or the straight flush, and if he just turns over the nut flush, do you send out the wrong table image?  I don't know the answer - and as I think through the thought process of my decision to raise, my main focus was how do I extract as much chips out of him given I am 90% certain I have him beat and this is a great opportunity to get some chips and not much else.  I think your take is very good though, just very hard to do at that juncture.   

[FSL009]

didnt read the whole thread but i disagree with the fold Q10 school.

you dont want to play it very often but with deep stacks and a pretty tough table you have to give yourself a chance of suprising them.

i am okay with the decision to play it as long as you understand your equity in the pot.  Raise at least 3x pre- reduces the likely callers.

on a 10108 board you are betting 2/3 of the pot into people that are calling you only with a 10 in there hand (ie A10, K10 seems to be the only hands that are likely to call you unless they have been calling wildly in other pots).  you want to bet maybe half the pot max.

when you get called you have to think your done with the hand given the above.

I would be very cautious about putting more chips in the middle from thos point forward.

anyway I dont mind a check call either but you just ahve to know that you can manage the pot and they will not want you to get away so they will slow down as well. 

[Detroitdad]

Pre-flop:  I don't think folding this hand is bad, but I don't see anything wrong with opening with it.  I do, however, dislike the min-raise.  With stacks this deep, go ahead and 2.5x or 3x it.  

This is my only real complaint with the hand. The min raise is horrible in my opinon. Fold it, or come in for 3.5 to 4 x's the pot.

Hell, you can play 10/2 os if you want. Just have to play it the correct way.

[troysteelerfan]

I agree with the min raise being a suspect if not downright bad play - if its 9 handed there is 525 in the pot to start with .. your raise to 400 just invites calls from players behind you and especially the blinds...in fact if I am even remotely comfortable in my chip stack I am calling the extra 200 from the BB with ANYTHING basically .... and you still haven't really defined your hand at all ... after all most players are going to call an extra 200 from the BB with just about anything for a chance at 925 (plus there 200 making it 1125).....as soon as you got two calllers behind you the blinds almost have to call .....the problems with the hand started there IMO - there is nothing wrong with playing the hand but why not just limp with it - you still had 4? active players behind you? if they raise you toss the hand...but your min raise isn't going to accomplish anything but sweeting the pot in my opinion....from there I guess the only thing I would question is how fast you called the all in on the river....as you mentioned you didn't feel there were any "weak" players at the table and he bets the river and then shoves to your raise ... would a weak player really shove on a paired board with out a fullhouse? maybe maybe not ... but did you take your time to think it through before you called his all in? I personally would mix my play with Q10 suited - even with a big M - cause if you play speculative hands a lot with a big M then your big M turns into a smaller M quickly - a big stack to blind ratio isn't a license IMO to play hands all the time...this may or may not be the way everyone views this and there is nothing wrong with playing Q10 in this situation but I certainly wouldn't want to go broke with it - especially when I still have plenty of chips....now you did go broke with a FH but you did so and were never ahead in the hand....just my two cents...its a tough way to go out yes...but certainly avoidable IMO

[Milo]

Pre-flop:  I don't think folding this hand is bad, but I don't see anything wrong with opening with it.  I do, however, dislike the min-raise.  With stacks this deep, go ahead and 2.5x or 3x it.  

SFTHIS . . .

This is my only real complaint with the hand. The min raise is horrible in my opinon. Fold it, or come in for 3.5 to 4 x's the pot.

Hell, you can play 10/2 os if you want. Just have to play it the correct way.

[bigstu]

Sorry but you guys are missing the whole point of Deep stack poker!  The game has changed!!!!!!! 2.5 times the BB is the norm....opening with 4x the big blind with 20 x the blind gives you no wiggle room......

The game is all now post flop.

Granted playing in a 60 or 80 man tourney designed to last 5 or 6 hours your right about the min raises but not in large field multi-day  events