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dave987654321
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« on: Jan 16, 2011 at 18:44 » |
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Blinds 400 800 ante 100
Next hand blinds 500 1000 ante 100
9 players
folded to button AQo
Button raises to 4500
small blind folds
Big blind pushes all in for 15700
(Button has 14000 before hand)
call or fold?
EDIT: Ignore last edit it was 4500! I'm just tired.
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« Last Edit: Jan 16, 2011 at 19:01 by dave987654321 »
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I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
Sir Winston Churchill
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holdemholmes
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« Reply #1 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 18:49 » |
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I think if you're going to open the pot to almost 6x the blind you shouldn't be folding to a shove when you have less than 20bb. If you feel like AQ wouldn't be good against a reraise, maybe a min raise or 3x raise to open the pot might be a better idea. I think with what you have in the pot you should be calling the shove.
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"...she set you up with the old check and raise...."
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holdemholmes
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« Reply #2 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 19:03 » |
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Even with the correct raise size listed, I still say it depends. If you think it's possible for the BB to shove worse, I would call. Also, if you fold, you leave yourself with right around 11k with blinds at 500/1000. If you feel comfortable enough playing shortstack with 11bb and believe that there's no way he's pushing worse, then the fold is right. Personally, I think I would call. I think this is a 50/50 or 70/30 enough to make it correct to call.
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"...she set you up with the old check and raise...."
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Martini
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« Reply #3 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 19:05 » |
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Need more info. Single table? Or MTT final table? Money bubble lurking around somewhere? Any info on Villain? How often have you been raising from the button? How many short stacks? Etc.
My guess is that you're either flipping or up against Ax so could be possibly dominated by AK, chopping with AQ, or have a weaker Ace dominated. Equity-wise for that hand my gut says you're priced in to a call but depending on the tourney situation I'm probably not interested in going to the mat with AQ in that situation.
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dave987654321
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« Reply #4 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 19:19 » |
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35 people left from 97 entrants. Top 9 paid. 20 minute blinds. Had raised from button orbit before and had just raised the small blind to collect big blind and 3 callers. Big blind had previously pushed all in with 10 10 (can't remember the details but this stuck in my mind as he had no real need to do it)
I thought I had to call especially with the blinds going up next hand. I haven't played in ages though!
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I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
Sir Winston Churchill
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NotFadeAway
Regular
Posts: 4403
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« Reply #5 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:01 » |
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Why raise so big? Personally, I think you landed in a spot where you have to call because you raised so huge, although I'd be inclined to call even if I raised to 2000 or so.
Using Pokerstove, even if he's shoving around the top 10% of hands (77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo+), you're still just over 51% to win. Even if he's shoving only the top 5.6% of hands (88+, ATs+, KQs, AKo), you're still only about a 60-40 undedog to win, so you clearly have the right price to make the call imo.
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Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care. I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.
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Martini
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« Reply #6 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:14 » |
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OK, now that the scenario switched back to an opening raise of 4500 instead of the 2400 or 2500 that it was when I replied I don't see how you can fold anything anymore after opening for 1/3 of your stack.
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holdemholmes
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« Reply #7 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:15 » |
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OK, now that the scenario switched back to an opening raise of 4500 instead of the 2400 or 2500 that it was when I replied I don't see how you can fold anything anymore after opening for 1/3 of your stack.
Exactly. I think its still a call even with the 2500 open or whatever it was, but 4500 is definitely a call. |
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"...she set you up with the old check and raise...."
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dave987654321
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« Reply #8 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:24 » |
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So I clearly make a mistake raising too much pre flop. After that I was sure I had to call. Wasn't enjoying the game at all, people were being rude and it was a pretty rubbish atmosphere. When I lost people just started talking about how bad my call was and that they would only have made the call with KK or AA. Just tired and annoyed and wanted to see if I had played it ridiculously badly as the "experts" thought.
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I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
Sir Winston Churchill
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Martini
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« Reply #9 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:46 » |
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OK, now that the scenario switched back to an opening raise of 4500 instead of the 2400 or 2500 that it was when I replied I don't see how you can fold anything anymore after opening for 1/3 of your stack.
Exactly. I think its still a call even with the 2500 open or whatever it was, but 4500 is definitely a call. Yeah, after looking more closely at the situation, you're sitting on 14K with an orbit costing you 800+400+9*100 = 2100 and even more the next hand so really I'd rather just shove with AQ from the button in that case. |
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holdemholmes
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« Reply #10 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 20:52 » |
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Just tired and annoyed and wanted to see if I had played it ridiculously badly as the "experts" thought.
Heh...experts. That's a good one. I made a similar move but with less chips and was told that I was a "f***** idiot" because I pushed with AJs and I'm supposed to just fold it. Trust me, the advice you've been given here is far better than the 'experts' idea of pushing only KK or AA. |
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"...she set you up with the old check and raise...."
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NotFadeAway
Regular
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« Reply #11 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 21:41 » |
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So I clearly make a mistake raising too much pre flop. After that I was sure I had to call. Wasn't enjoying the game at all, people were being rude and it was a pretty rubbish atmosphere. When I lost people just started talking about how bad my call was and that they would only have made the call with KK or AA. Just tired and annoyed and wanted to see if I had played it ridiculously badly as the "experts" thought.
The 'experts' were morons. Don't worry about them at all. Also, looking at it, Martini's 'just shove' advice is probably best. If you don't shove though, I'd favor a much smaller raise (that probably contradictory, but I think it makes sense...  .) |
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Take my love. Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care. I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me.
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Martini
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« Reply #12 on: Jan 16, 2011 at 22:10 » |
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If the rest of the table thinks that you should only call off with AA or KK then you're going to be able to very profitably steal a ton of blinds.
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stooks99
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« Reply #13 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 01:01 » |
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Take off the skirt and open shove 17.5 BB from the button. You're NEVER raise/folding in this spot unless you have some dead soul read on another player. After making it 1,000x the BB like you did, you really can't fold at all.
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dave987654321
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« Reply #14 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 07:05 » |
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My 'M' was what I was thinking about. I knew I had to do something soon, I wanted a double up. It will sound really weird but I had thought about pushing but I knew they wouldn't understand it so even though I knew it would (or possibly would) be the right move no one would understand it and I would look stupid. This week and last people were getting down to just over 1 orbit left before pushing or if more they still waited for a hand. It was my second time playing live and I'm no good with people so just need to forget about what they think.
I was never going to get away from AQ so I should have pushed and not worried about people then saying "what's he pushing with that many chips for!" Found it very disconcerting people not talking to you but talking to each other loudly about how badly you played as this happened to lots of people.
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I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
Sir Winston Churchill
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holdemholmes
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 17, 2011 at 10:52 » |
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I was never going to get away from AQ so I should have pushed and not worried about people then saying "what's he pushing with that many chips for!" Found it very disconcerting people not talking to you but talking to each other loudly about how badly you played as this happened to lots of people.
If you worry about what people think and how they feel about the way you play, you will never be able to play your game. It sounds like you knew what the best play was or atleast what you felt the best play was; that's what you should have went with. Clearly these players asking 'what are you raising so much for' have no concept of how to play when the blinds get big and you get short on chips, so it's nothing to be concerned about. |
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"...she set you up with the old check and raise...."
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Nerre
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 02:31 » |
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I can't find anything about what the villain had, only that you lost?
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Martini
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« Reply #18 on: Jan 18, 2011 at 12:11 » |
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I can't find anything about what the villain had, only that you lost?
Doesn't matter strategy-wise. |
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Nerre
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« Reply #19 on: Jan 19, 2011 at 01:49 » |
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No, but to verify that the strategy was right.
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Martini
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« Reply #20 on: Jan 19, 2011 at 02:34 » |
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No, but to verify that the strategy was right.
The correct strategy is the correct strategy regardless of the outcome. Calling an all-in pre-flop with Aces is not the wrong play if the Aces end up losing. Likewise, knowing exactly what villain had in this hand is irrelevant. |
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stooks99
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« Reply #21 on: Jan 19, 2011 at 18:27 » |
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No, but to verify that the strategy was right.
Correct strategy > results. |
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Nerre
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« Reply #22 on: Jan 20, 2011 at 02:39 » |
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The correct strategy is the correct strategy regardless of the outcome. Calling an all-in pre-flop with Aces is not the wrong play if the Aces end up losing. Likewise, knowing exactly what villain had in this hand is irrelevant.
You, but being able to show that "Villain had only 30% of winning" makes it easier to explain to people why it is the correct strategy. NFA pokerstoved a few hand ranges, and at least I think it would be interesting to see whether the villain had one of those hands or not. |
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Martini
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« Reply #23 on: Jan 20, 2011 at 03:36 » |
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The correct strategy is the correct strategy regardless of the outcome. Calling an all-in pre-flop with Aces is not the wrong play if the Aces end up losing. Likewise, knowing exactly what villain had in this hand is irrelevant.
You, but being able to show that "Villain had only 30% of winning" makes it easier to explain to people why it is the correct strategy. NFA pokerstoved a few hand ranges, and at least I think it would be interesting to see whether the villain had one of those hands or not. But what if villain ended up having Aces? Does that make it the wrong move now? Wouldn't that make it harder to explain why shoving is the correct move here? It's a game of imperfect information and the best you can do is try to put villain on the best range you can and act accordingly. Getting hung up on exact hands is counter-productive to applying strategy correctly. just fixed the quotes.. ~A5S [Edit: Thanks A5S] |
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« Last Edit: Jan 20, 2011 at 13:44 by Martini »
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dave987654321
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« Reply #24 on: Jan 20, 2011 at 13:43 » |
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For completeness; Villain had QQ
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I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.
Sir Winston Churchill
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Nerre
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« Reply #25 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 04:20 » |
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It's a game of imperfect information and the best you can do is try to put villain on the best range you can and act accordingly. Getting hung up on exact hands is counter-productive to applying strategy correctly.
The point is: If you put the villain on a range, and the hand was NOT in that range? Then you maybe made the wrong decision. |
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Martini
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« Reply #26 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 09:46 » |
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It's a game of imperfect information and the best you can do is try to put villain on the best range you can and act accordingly. Getting hung up on exact hands is counter-productive to applying strategy correctly.
The point is: If you put the villain on a range, and the hand was NOT in that range? Then you maybe made the wrong decision. Well, technically, you made the wrong read instead of the wrong decision.  But that's mincing words. A range will never be perfect. Could a solid uber-tight player shove over a raise with 27os? Possibly, just not enough to include in a realistic range for the player. I suppose you can always put an infinitesimal percentage to every single combination of hole cards but really that just clouds the issue. I understand the curiosity in wanting to know what villain had but it truly does not matter. Worrying about actual hole cards is counterproductive to useful strategy discussions due to Results Oriented Thinking or basing thinking on what actually happened instead of what the best action is on balance over time in that situation. That is why you will see people leave villain's hole cards out of hand histories. That same curiosity is what drives players to want to rabbit hunt to see if they made the "right fold" even though they were not getting the correct odds to chase their draw. The correct answer does not depend on the result. Then there is another aspect of this hand where even if you think you are behind it can *still* be correct to call based on pot odds. In this case the oversized open raise basically forces Hero to go with his hand unless he has a complete soul read on villain. Again, it is totally reasonable to be curious about hole cards. It's human nature. But it is detrimental to the process of assessing a hand to think that you have to know villain's exact hole cards in making a decision. |
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pathand
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« Reply #27 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 15:20 » |
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Excellent reply, Martini. (imho)  |
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Detroitdad
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« Reply #28 on: Jan 21, 2011 at 17:29 » |
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Excellent reply, Martini. (imho) As usual |
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FSL009
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« Reply #29 on: Mar 18, 2011 at 00:50 » |
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Given the stack size is like m of 10 he could shove pretty widely here especially if he thinks your range is quite wide, which I wont know if that is the case.
I would think your right at the bottom of your calling range here. so either a fold or a call is fine IMO.
your likely to have at least two overs at worst though so its not a complete disaster to call.
i agree next time dont raise so much pre. in fact late in a tourney where you are dealing with short stacks i hardly even play AQos for the very reason its hard to fold if someone shoves on you.
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