Pet peeve: shoving all in except for a card cap

[Martini]

Action is to Player X, he shoves all of his chips in the middle but leaves behind a single low denomination chip which he'd been using as a card cap. Now, everyone knows that that last chip is going to get in the middle and he's not tying to be funny since it was just an oversight. That's not the issue. The problem is that the other player may assume that he is all in and show his cards. Now depending on the venue, there may be repercussions to showing a hand early and if so shoving all chips but a card cap could even be used as an angle shoot. This would be avoided if everyone would just bring their own card protector.

OK, mini-rant is over.

[holdemholmes]

Just another instance where if people paid attention it wouldn't be an issue. I see this happen a lot at a game I play in, and most of the time the TD allows the player to put the additional chip in after the fact and consider it part of the original bet. Either way, it just creates an issue where there shouldn't be. It really is a valid argument for bringing your own card protector.

[Nerre]

I think this rule shows how it should be handled (even though it is not exactly the same situation).

20. A player who declares all in and loses the pot, then discovers that one or more chips were hidden, is not entitled to benefit from this. That player is eliminated from the tournament if the opponent had sufficient chips to cover the hidden ones (A rebuy is okay if allowable by the rules of that event). If another deal has not yet started, the director may rule the chips belong to the opponent who won that pot, if that obviously would have happened with the chips out in plain view. If the next deal has started, the discovered chips are removed from the tournament.

[Dr. Neau]

I think this rule shows how it should be handled (even though it is not exactly the same situation).

20. A player who declares all in and loses the pot, then discovers that one or more chips were hidden, is not entitled to benefit from this. That player is eliminated from the tournament if the opponent had sufficient chips to cover the hidden ones (A rebuy is okay if allowable by the rules of that event). If another deal has not yet started, the director may rule the chips belong to the opponent who won that pot, if that obviously would have happened with the chips out in plain view. If the next deal has started, the discovered chips are removed from the tournament.

Disagree.  Martini never said anything about the player "declaring" all-in.  He said the player shoved.

[Martini]

Indeed. The player did not announce an all-in. He made a perfectly legal raise of all of his chips except for one.

[William]

It's situations like these where common sense should take precedence over the strict application of the rules.

I've seen last year's WSOP where a player thought she was all-in and wanted to turn over her cards when the dealer stopped her saying that she wasn't all-in yet. She still had one chip on her cards. She consequently went all-in on the next betting round.

Now, should she have turned over her hand, or the other player turned over his, a warning would be in order, and maybe a small one-hand penalty if that player turned over his hand too soon before, but he should not be penalized by making him forfeit the pot. I would raise hell if that were the ruling, and take it as high-up as I can take it.

[Cav57]

As the dealer in our games, this is what I do. When a player is low on chips I keep and an eye  on his betting.   When he makes a raise I ask him is he all in, he says yes, I announce it. (players name ) is all in.  Then I proceed to the next person.   I tell them when to turn their cards over.  No problems yet. 

Also I provide card protectors for those who do not have them.

Right or wrong, that is what I do.

I could see if this happen on a regular bases that would be my peeve too.

[Martini]

Having the dealer clarify would address the issue though the pet peeve is that it shouldn't be happening in the first place. Additionally, it would technically be a string bet to allow the player to throw in his card cap in a second motion.

[bigstu]

i see this happen all the time and it is not an oversight.  Especially in a bounty tournament.

the player in early position leaves out a small chip so if someone want to take the player out they have to commit more chips to pot with x number of players behind!

!

[Martini]

@bigstu
Interesting tactic. Whenever I've seen a chip left behind it has always been an oversight which is what my gripe is about.

[Wedge Rock]

Indeed. The player did not announce an all-in. He made a perfectly legal raise of all of his chips except for one.

Then shame on the other player for not paying attention...  Unless you hear "all in" you should clarify.

[bigstu]

Funny thing happened last night. Blinds are 500 1000 100.  UTG Player pushes in 4100 chips leaving 100 behind. when asked if he is all in he says no I have 1 chip left!

Player to my left the button  says I call and puts out a 5000 chip

When action is over Utg turns over his hand    and everyone screams he's not all in

flop comes    and UTG pushes all in for 100 and the button incredibly folds saying he cannot win!

The only hand that could not win was 5 10 which we know he did not have he actually had  and had a 3 outer

It stunk of collusion but we all knew it was an honest mistake!.

[KPrather]

When action is over Utg turns over his hand   and everyone screams he's not all in

Isn't his hand dead at this point? Or did he at least get a penalty?

It stunk of collusion but we all knew it was an honest mistake!.

Honest or not, it's still a penalty.

Also, the other player's a bozo for shipping 4100, and not calling 100 more. Talk about being pot committed.

[bigstu]

When action is over Utg turns over his hand   and everyone screams he's not all in

Isn't his hand dead at this point? Or did he at least get a penalty?

It stunk of collusion but we all knew it was an honest mistake!.

Honest or not, it's still a penalty.

Also, the other player's a bozo for shipping 4100, and not calling 100 more. Talk about being pot committed.

No Casino will kill a hand for this he's playing at a disadvantage.  Some will give a penalty 10 minutes or a 1 round rotation. here he was just given a warning... and yes to fold for 100 was ridiculous!