shove or fold?

[holdemholmes]

Villain is relative unknown...only a few hands into session. I really thought he had an overpair and thought it was good....but the raise size was kind of large...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.25)
BB ($4.99)
UTG ($4.25)
MP1 ($13.33)
MP2 ($16.60)
Hero (CO) ($6.14)
Button ($4.68)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.20, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67) 3, 2, 4 (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.45, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $2,


Hero?

[Detroitdad]

With only 6 behind you, I prolly shove here

[gweeb]

fold

[pauld22]

Ick.  Shove then puke when villain turns over a set/hits flush daraw.

[holdemholmes]

Ick.  Shove then puke when villain turns over a set/hits flush daraw.

You got part of it right....  .

[pauld22]

Ick.  Shove then puke when villain turns over a set/hits flush daraw.

You got part of it right....  .

heh - you managed to not puke, or the  saved your bacon?

[holdemholmes]

Heh....king of diamonds came, but it didn't save me. The worst part about this is he slowrolled me bigtime...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.25)
BB ($4.99)
UTG ($4.25)
MP1 ($13.33)
MP2 ($16.60)
Hero (CO) ($6.14)
Button ($4.68)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.20, Button calls $0.20, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.67) 3, 2, 4 (3 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.45, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $2, Hero raises to $5.94 (All-In), MP2 calls $3.94

Turn: ($12.55) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($12.55) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $12.55 | Rake: $0.62

Results:
MP2 had A, 5 (straight, five high).
Hero had K, K (three of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: MP2 won $11.93

[pauld22]

Bleh.  I actually considered that hand for about half a second.  Then I saw just how crushed you were if you had it then didn't want to consider it any more!

Code:

Board: 2h 3h 4d
Dead: 

equity win tie       pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 03.333%  02.42% 00.91%             24         9.00   { KcKs }
Hand 1: 96.667%  95.76% 00.91%            948         9.00   { Ah5h }

[Martini]

If you are never going to fold a big overpair post flop then you at least need to deny proper odds to Set mine, Flush mine, junk mine etc. against you. As is you raised the .05 BB to .20 with basically $6 behind. Those are huge implied odds if villain hits and you are willing to go broke with one pair. You are in really good shape against medium pairs up to QQ. But in return you had terrible equity against AA, Sets, Straights, and two pairs. Furthermore you get into coinflip situations when you are facing combo draws such as an over and a Flush draw, Flush draw/Striaght draw, an over, gutter, and a Flush draw, etc. Plus, you're getting action from a big stack which means he either is a lucky donk (sometimes) or knows what he is doing (a lot of the times). In this case he has done the equivalent of stacking two other players and is not worried about cashing out his profit for the session. Lot of red flags to tell you that you might not be good.

I totally understand wanting to stack off with AA/KK in that spot but you can really be in a bad way. At least make them pay bad odds to hit against you *if* you are always going to stack off there.

[holdemholmes]

Good point Martini. I have been avoiding stacking off with overpairs just because the board is all undercards.....but in this particular spot I really really thought he had a hand like 88/99. It seemed like he was betting the flop when an A or K didn't flop thinking I had a hand like AK/AQ. The part that I think about was the fact that he was always donk betting hands like that, and not check raising like he did in this spot. This was his first check raise and that probably should of raised a red flag.

[Martini]

Good point Martini. I have been avoiding stacking off with overpairs just because the board is all undercards.....but in this particular spot I really really thought he had a hand like 88/99. It seemed like he was betting the flop when an A or K didn't flop thinking I had a hand like AK/AQ. The part that I think about was the fact that he was always donk betting hands like that, and not check raising like he did in this spot. This was his first check raise and that probably should of raised a red flag.

I don't think 88/99 is strong enough to give a free card here especially with such a draw heavy board. He would be vulnerable not only to your two overs but a Five for a wheel and possibly a Flush if you are suited. More likely he is checking to get the cbet out of AK or even better would be to get more money in faster if you indeed have a hand like you actually did. Plus he can rep a Flush draw (which he also happened to have) by doing a big overbet c/r. I'm actually a little surprised he played it so fast since there is not really any card that hurts his hand though there are scare cards which could kill his action.

[holdemholmes]

I don't think 88/99 is strong enough to give a free card here especially with such a draw heavy board. He would be vulnerable not only to your two overs but a Five for a wheel and possibly a Flush if you are suited. More likely he is checking to get the cbet out of AK or even better would be to get more money in faster if you indeed have a hand like you actually did. Plus he can rep a Flush draw (which he also happened to have) by doing a big overbet c/r. I'm actually a little surprised he played it so fast since there is not really any card that hurts his hand though there are scare cards which could kill his action.

True. Guess there's not a lot more I can say since he got the money out of me  . This was really my only spot where I got my money in bad the whole session. It really just got me mad because he ran out his whole time bank slowrolling me...next time I will find a fold.

[stooks99]

5NL...shove

[Martini]

I don't think 88/99 is strong enough to give a free card here especially with such a draw heavy board. He would be vulnerable not only to your two overs but a Five for a wheel and possibly a Flush if you are suited. More likely he is checking to get the cbet out of AK or even better would be to get more money in faster if you indeed have a hand like you actually did. Plus he can rep a Flush draw (which he also happened to have) by doing a big overbet c/r. I'm actually a little surprised he played it so fast since there is not really any card that hurts his hand though there are scare cards which could kill his action.

True. Guess there's not a lot more I can say since he got the money out of me  . This was really my only spot where I got my money in bad the whole session. It really just got me mad because he ran out his whole time bank slowrolling me...next time I will find a fold.

It's a tricky spot. You will definitely find those times where villain is a donk who just can't fold his KJos. And you have no trouble finding people who will go to the mat with any two hearts there as well. So there will definitely be times where you're good. And of course I'm not saying you should always fold. I just hate dangling huge implied odds out there with big pairs that I'm reluctant to fold after the Flop.

[luckystraights]

Not many players give action when you raise 10-12x the BB pre even at 5nl, and unless your only playing QQ+ AK and if your range is face up you need to fold all but AA to a 3b with this sizing scheme, then your building pots too large with your medium strength hards, forcing you to varrying your raise size based on hand strength, which is rarley a good idea, despite what certain books suggest. At these stakes varrying between 20-30 is probably fine and a good idea, but raising to 20 with 77 and 50+ with KK will raise some eyebrows from even the most casual fish imo.

[gweeb]

imo ?

[Martini]

Don't get me wrong, best case scenario is to learn when to dump your hand. But if you are not going to fold then I think it is better to go ahead and turn your cards face up and blast at the pot; otherwise, you are either going to just take down the small pre-flop pot with your Flop bet or get stacked. Blasting at the pot you are either going to just take down a small pre-flop pot or get action from a likely worse hand unless they have AA or KK themselves.

[austin5string]

imo ?

in  my opinion

[luckystraights]

Don't get me wrong, best case scenario is to learn when to dump your hand. But if you are not going to fold then I think it is better to go ahead and turn your cards face up and blast at the pot; otherwise, you are either going to just take down the small pre-flop pot with your Flop bet or get stacked. Blasting at the pot you are either going to just take down a small pre-flop pot or get action from a likely worse hand unless they have AA or KK themselves.

you'll win the blinds most of the time, so why not raise 4x and just c/f any flop where you don't flop a set / trips or pair / draw combo.

[Martini]

Don't get me wrong, best case scenario is to learn when to dump your hand. But if you are not going to fold then I think it is better to go ahead and turn your cards face up and blast at the pot; otherwise, you are either going to just take down the small pre-flop pot with your Flop bet or get stacked. Blasting at the pot you are either going to just take down a small pre-flop pot or get action from a likely worse hand unless they have AA or KK themselves.

you'll win the blinds most of the time, so why not raise 4x and just c/f any flop where you don't flop a set / trips or pair / draw combo.

I'm only talking about KK and AA which are often held on to way to long, not talking about any other hand. It is easy for players to dump a middle suited connector when the Flop comes out AKJ of the wrong suit.

[holdemholmes]

Don't get me wrong, best case scenario is to learn when to dump your hand. But if you are not going to fold then I think it is better to go ahead and turn your cards face up and blast at the pot; otherwise, you are either going to just take down the small pre-flop pot with your Flop bet or get stacked. Blasting at the pot you are either going to just take down a small pre-flop pot or get action from a likely worse hand unless they have AA or KK themselves.

you'll win the blinds most of the time, so why not raise 4x and just c/f any flop where you don't flop a set / trips or pair / draw combo.

I'm only talking about KK and AA which are often held on to way to long, not talking about any other hand. It is easy for players to dump a middle suited connector when the Flop comes out AKJ of the wrong suit.

I get what you're saying....and I think that has always been my biggest flaw. I'm learning how to fold the big pairs on coordinated boards, this was just a lapse in judgement. I just found this flop a little tougher as I thought he was protecting 99/1010 against an ace.