not paying off the villian

[FSL009]

So line check

when you are clearly not ahead and clearly going to lose but your getting sufficient price to check ie you only have to be right once in five times to make the pay off profitable.

how do you stop paying the nut hand off...

if i knew that i would be a very good player but i just keep handing money back to the nut hands all the time...

no it is not a bad beat thing...

i am just wondering what mental exercises do people do so that they get themselves this tight on the end of a huge hand or do you just cop it sweat?

[Martini]

If you are talking about paying off the Nut Flush with a Ten high Flush or the top end of the Straight with the butt end then I would say that you should look at your hand selection. Why are you in a hand with a second best hand in the first place? Not saying that you should *always* play only hands that can make the Nuts but if it is a chronic problem that you are having then maybe the solution to not paying off villain is not getting in that spot to begin with.

But to answer your question more directly, the right call is the right call. If you are indeed catching villain enough times to be profitable then you're making the right call. But if you are more sure that you're beat than the odds being offered then it's a fold.

[luckystraights]

Just cause your getting 5:1, doesn't mean you should call, some villains never bluff in big pots, or there bluffs will beat enough of your range that u have to fold anyway, even though u might have the best hand this one time.

[dugthefish]

i would at least double my profit if i knew the answer to that one lol.  since that is a huge hole in my game, i thought i would comment.

i suppose it just comes down to discipline.  i often find my self flopping top 2 or top set, value betting all the way, and then calling villians shove when the flush comes on the river.  i am trying to fix that by paying more attention to who is in the pot with me (overbetting more when i know the villian has a wide range), playing in better position, and remembering that i will eventually catch the maniac some day as i fold my trip kings to his 7-high flush.  online micro stakes, it does seem like the all in at the end is rarely a bluff, so really all you can do is try to minimize your losses.

if you find anything else that helps, please, let me know.

[FSL009]

Martini to give you some context i am pretty tight on my hand selection except where i can check my blind of course.

This is a check the blind situation that in all other cases i would just fold this hand preflop. this is online.

9c7c.

I check behind three limpers.

i hit the flush on the flop...10c 6c 3c

i bet - I choose to slow play fewer times these days cause people tend to put money in the pot with these sorts of flops or there never going to regardless of slow playing.

I get two callers - wow.

6h comes - i check cause I could now be behind any made set or any 6x hand and in limped pots i have slowed down alot quicker since being in freefall.  everyone checks.
jd comes I bet about 45% of the pot figuring that i prefer to bet fold if i am behind, first limper shoves (worst result given the shortest stack) second limper folds i am left to call what is about 1/5th of the total pot.

she had 33 for the full house.

should i fold on the river?  should I have checked the river given taht there could have been a slow play there. should i have bet less at the river to see if the shove came losing less and reducing my odds for the later shove call.

another example is top two pair AK v straigth draw 10 on the river gives QJ his four outer....  i bet all the way and could not see any half decent player over playing the four outer draw but they did....and they showed me the shove on the end similar to above but was a bit more about 40% of the pot to call at the end.

I am playing 10/20c and i have had to come back to this level for BR managment so maybe i just am seeing more bad players doing stuff i wouldnt do...and taking time to adjust to that.

anyway it is costing me big time.   

[luckystraights]

you should bet the turn with your flush, its hard to flop sets, I b/c river without a read, especially at 10/20.

Generally just put villain on a range as best u can, and narrow it sstreet by street, and then play accordingly. If a passive fish c/c's 2 streets, then open shoves or c/r's the 3 flush river, he has the flush 99.9% of the time, so fold anhything besides a mid / strong flush or higher.

[Martini]

As the saying goes, don't go broke in a limped pot. I don't mind betting the flush but as soon as I get any action I'm done with the hand. If you get a free showdown then great, I don't see any reason to bet the River in that case as there are basically no hands that you are beating who will call you. You have the Nine and Seven, the Six and Three are on the board. Someone would have to have played something like 4c5c and if so I would have assumed they would have raised you with a flopped Flush. If you get someone shoving I'd just let it go. You are losing to a someone with as bad as TcXc. I guess if the amount you have to call is really small from a short stack then you can look them up but the reason you were in that fix in the first place was opening the door by betting on the end.

[FSL009]

So another example.

i am in mP with 66

I call the limps LP aggressive player raises a standard 5x

4x plus one for me being a limper.

I call as the 11% chance of hitting a set and getting paid of is worth the effort agaisnt his stack.

one over card on the flop is an 8
 other two are 23

I bet to see if i can get them to fold they dont then i check as another over card comes

then i check the river they value bet i pay them off given the value works for me to check them out again 1/5th of the pot.  there are two over cards

They have one of the over cards and carp else.

but i dont think i can eliminate this from my game because the odds work but i checked poker tracker i have not hit a set in the last 72 small pairs i have played...wow. not one.

I am due a bit on this i think...lol

i aslo checked my KK v AA I am 8 or 22 times at the moment ie i had KK v AA 8 times in the last 22 that I had KK.

variance? i guess so.

[luckystraights]

but i dont think i can eliminate this from my game because the odds work

do they how, why?

Just cause your getting 5:1 or even 50:1 doesn't mean your correct in calling, I suck on the math side of this, but you have to put the guy on a range and then compare your pot odds to the likelihood your villain will bet worse or bluff, u can't just say well I had 5:1 so calling is good, though it'll probably be a near neutral call in a small pot.

You need to think about your villains range, how he plays and the board texture, and what your range is perceived is.

Oh and post hands on 2p2 in unl.

[holdemholmes]

the question I have to FSL is how many people called the flop bet in that hand? I can see thinking that if one person just calls they might have ak/aq....but if more than 1 person calls I would have to say I was beat...and honestly...I wouldnt call the river bet for any odds...just seems like a really bad call to me if more than 1 person called the flop bet.

[FSL009]

I cant remember but agree if it is two or three calling then it is gone...i think it will have been only one.

Lucky their range is any two cards...i wasn't playing anyone that had any really tightness to them...their VPIP was like 55 or something.

anyway i think the issue is that i got caught up with VPIP and not basics... fold to over cards when you have little invested in the pot and only two outs to improve.

basically i am getting 5 chances to hit one being correct...their range is irrelevant...20% is a tight players bluffing range he would be more like 30% so the odds are good.

[luckystraights]

basically i am getting 5 chances to hit one being correct...their range is irrelevant...20% is a tight players bluffing range he would be more like 30% so the odds are good.

1. who say's 20% is a tight players bluffing range, if that's your read then w/e, but if your just pulling that number out of the air, then your making an assumption on his frequencies that could be costly.

2. Range is one of the most critical aspects of poker, unless u have the nuts and someone goes AI, its never irrelevant.