Live 2/3 hand

[FSL009]

So mates hand.

another big pot this time playing 5/5 I have about $1400 in chips the other two oponenets have about $800
 
I got Ks9s preflop no raise all limp I am in position on button…
 
Flop
 
Qs10s3s
 
SB bets $15 (a nothing bet) BB makes it $75  BB+2 calls  around to me I make it $175  SB folds.. BB goes $175 + $300 and again BB+2 calls… now to me $300 to make the call what to do?
 
Some back ground BB is a maniac player he could be making this raise with the flush or even with just top pair 2 pair etc!  smooth caller is not a fish but kind of an average player I don’t rate him much!

Just a line check as we can not agree on action between us, i dont know if he has posted in elsewhere but jsut in case It is a mates hand and not mine so it could be on other forums as well from him.

cheers

(Click to show/hide)

so he folded which I am sort of okay with but i think second nuts against these two is unlikley to be behind here and he should have shoved.

the result was that BB had a J high made flush, BB+2 had 10 10 and hit a 10 on the turn to hit quads so if he had shoved he was going to lose a lot.  He rationalised that he fold on the basis that 60/40 so deep is a flip and that he should not be flipping that deep and can find another spot.  I agree to some extent but can not stove it as i dont have the program with the ranges that you could put them on i think he is more likley got equity to 70% and that itis a clear shove/re-raise. definately never call just in case the stray As is out there cause another spade basically kills you.

Lucky it woudl be worth stoving both players with ranges of sets, Axs various combinations of spades, Axos and all two pair combinations if you read the spoiler cheers

[holdemholmes]

I think I would push all in here...there is already a good amount in the pot...and they could be raising on the flush draw. The only spade that can come here that does not hurt you is the js obviously...so I think going all in is the right move here.

[Martini]

...
The only spade that can come here that does not hurt you is the js obviously...so I think going all in is the right move here.

Or the Ace of Spades.

I don't agree with a shove here. Sounds like an "info-shove" where you'll find out very quickly if you're losing.

[holdemholmes]

...
The only spade that can come here that does not hurt you is the js obviously...so I think going all in is the right move here.

Or the Ace of Spades.

I don't agree with a shove here. Sounds like an "info-shove" where you'll find out very quickly if you're losing.

Right..i forgot about the A of spades.. .

[luckystraights]

This is said with a caveat that I don't play live.

You have a blocker to a premium hand that the blinds can wake up with you have position and plenty of equity potential if u get called so u should raise this pre, and make it reasonably large to take down the dead money. What do u mean by all limp? r we talking 4 limpers, or 7 limpers?,  I'm just trying to imagine this scenario, if all the table limped, I'd make it around $200 to go pre and based on these effective stacks shove any flop if you flop a FD, TP or a lot of back door potential, though I would assume this will fold out everyone unless someone was trapping with AA-KK pre and who will at this point shove over the top I would expect.

As played if effective stacks are $800, I would make it $300 and shove any turn. I'm basing this number on the fact that I think the pot size is at least $225 when it comes to you. When its raised back around you have the 2nd nuts so just shove.

EDIT: stove as requested:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

   2,140,110  games     0.109 secs    19,634,036  games/sec

Board: Qs Ts 3s
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    61.526%     61.53%    00.00%           1316724            0.00   { Ks9s }

Hand 1:    13.708%     13.71%    00.00%            293340           31.50   { QQ, TT, 33, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KsQs, KsJs, KsTs, Ks9s, Ks8s, Ks7s, Ks6s, Ks5s, Ks4s, Ks3s, Ks2s, QsJs, QsTs, Qs9s, Qs8s, Qs7s, Qs6s, Qs5s, Qs4s, Qs3s, Qs2s, JsTs, Js9s, Js8s, Js7s, Js6s, Js5s, Js4s, Js3s, Js2s, Ts9s, Ts8s, Ts7s, Ts6s, Ts5s, Ts4s, Ts3s, Ts2s, 9s8s, 9s7s, 9s6s, 9s5s, 9s4s, 9s3s, 9s2s, 8s7s, 8s6s, 8s5s, 8s4s, 8s3s, 8s2s, 7s6s, 7s5s, 7s4s, 7s3s, 7s2s, 6s5s, 6s4s, 6s3s, 6s2s, 5s4s, 5s3s, 5s2s, 4s3s, 4s2s, 3s2s, Ac9s, Ad9s, Ah9s, As9c, As9d, As9h, Ac8s, Ad8s, Ah8s, As8c, As8d, As8h, Ac7s, Ad7s, Ah7s, As7c, As7d, As7h, Ac6s, Ad6s, Ah6s, As6c, As6d, As6h, Ac5s, Ad5s, Ah5s, As5c, As5d, As5h, Ac4s, Ad4s, Ah4s, As4c, As4d, As4h, A3o, Ac2s, Ad2s, Ah2s, As2c, As2d, As2h, QTo }

Hand 2:    24.766%     24.76%    00.00%            529983           31.50   { TT, 33, AJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, QsJs, QsTs, Qs9s, JsTs, Js9s, Js8s, Ts9s, Ts8s, Ts7s, 9s8s, 9s7s, 9s6s, 8s7s, 8s6s, 7s6s, 7s5s, 6s5s, 5s4s, 4s3s, 3s2s, AcJs, AdJs, AhJs, AsJc, AsJd, AsJh, AcTs, AdTs, AhTs, AsTc, AsTd, AsTh, Ac9s, Ad9s, Ah9s, As9c, As9d, As9h }

oh and btw, I read your post to me the highest stack apart from heroes is $800, $800 in a $5 BB although possibly technically deep depending on your definition, it is never deep enough that you should fold the 2nd nuts here. If your friend is hesitant about putting $800 in when he's a 60% favorite he his playing way above his means and should not be playing in a $5/$5 game.

EDIT 2: Manually added spaces between hands on stove read out to improve readability.

[luckystraights]

...
The only spade that can come here that does not hurt you is the js obviously...so I think going all in is the right move here.

Or the Ace of Spades.

I don't agree with a shove here. Sounds like an "info-shove" where you'll find out very quickly if you're losing.

seriously?

You don't think this "maniac" is playing 33 or QT or even Q3s for value here, given effective stack sizes (I'm assuming $800 deep), calling is pretty dumb given u have $500 behind and u have the 2nd nuts, what more do u need to ship it.

[NotFadeAway]

I agree with lucky here about raising preflop.  It's a weak hand, but if you want to play, bumping it to $20 or so (or whatever is a good raise at a live table) seems best.  It will make it a lot easier to play after the flop, even if you don't flop a flush.
I tend to agree with lucky on the post flop play also.  I can see how one could fold against a certain type of player, but if this guy truly is a 'maniac' you have to have his range crushed.  Sets, nut flush draws, or even JsJ is very possible, I would think (assuming again that the read of him being a maniac is accurate.)  Also, the most likely hand (a smaller flush) would be drawing dead against you, and will almost certainly call, so I have to favor a shove.

[luckystraights]

I agree with lucky here about raising preflop.  It's a weak hand, but if you want to play, bumping it to $20 or so (or whatever is a good raise at a live table) seems best.  It will make it a lot easier to play after the flop, even if you don't flop a flush.
I tend to agree with lucky on the post flop play also.  I can see how one could fold against a certain type of player, but if this guy truly is a 'maniac' you have to have his range crushed.  Sets, nut flush draws, or even JsJ is very possible, I would think (assuming again that the read of him being a maniac is accurate.)  Also, the most likely hand (a smaller flush) would be drawing dead against you, and will almost certainly call, so I have to favor a shove.

A friend with live experience suggested calling to shove over a turn bet, to avoid inducing hero folds, that works well too, though I'm never folding.

Also my suggested raise to $200 wasn't a typo, I didn't mean $20, I meant $200, seriously.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

I can't help wonder if you're not laying massive odds for your opponents by raising so much, lucky.  You're negating your position and decent hand by making a raise that even the worst players will only play against with QQ+ or maybe AK+.  Would that type of raise serve to do anything beyond metagame?  I'm sure you have reason for the idea, but I guess I just am not comprehending it.

[luckystraights]

I can't help wonder if you're not laying massive odds for your opponents by raising so much, lucky.  You're negating your position and decent hand by making a raise that even the worst players will only play against with QQ+ or maybe AK+.  Would that type of raise serve to do anything beyond metagame?  I'm sure you have reason for the idea, but I guess I just am not comprehending it.

there's a ton of dead money available for the taking, Kx suited is not a hand I want to play post, if I did I'd probably limp it, but that sucks when there is so much money for the taking. The more info you have on the players the more you can size down your raise, but as a default I'm imagining something around 4x per limper, plus a little extra, its the same sort of raise I'll raise for value.

If you have AA here u don't want 6 callers. If your raising to pick up the pot pre, you can't just make it like $60 to go imo. Going by what OP said I think there is comfortably over $100 in the pot pre.... o.wait, I can't really picture this maybe $200 is a tad big, though I'm definitely raising big, and based on number of BB's it will be a v.big raise, $125 would probably work, that's 25 BB's which is the theoretically b/f threshold before your priced in too much to call it off when someone shoves.

On another note how u doing, have you been playing much lately?

[FSL009]

So something that is probably mostly local issue.  in a 5/5 game here with the two guys on the table that are there the non-fish but not great player and the maniac a raise preflop to $20 is nowhere near enough neither is $200.  in fact our experience here is that you can not fold everyone at the table unless u shove pre.  great if your the tightest player in the world but not so great with K9s.

I think the limp for local reasons is good...if he hit top pair, or top two he is well placed.  the flush creates a real tricky spot.

he folded because of the smooth caller weak guy.  the reason being he could be crushed or at best he was drawing 60% fav.  which lucky on the range we used is pretty correct.   the fact is sure you have equity but with very little in the pot and second nuts there is always going to be a better spot to collect that payout from him for less risk.

I am okay with the fold.  although I also agree technically you have enough equity here to shove it.

Pre-flop i probably raise, although with such a weak hand in this game it is almost always better in this situaton to limp it - just cause you will get three callers as noted and have no better idea of their range anyway.  but you have just elevated a pot you had very little equity in pre-flop.

I think live is slightly different in ths regard as less people fold pre-flop.

[Martini]

...
The only spade that can come here that does not hurt you is the js obviously...so I think going all in is the right move here.

Or the Ace of Spades.

I don't agree with a shove here. Sounds like an "info-shove" where you'll find out very quickly if you're losing.

seriously?

You don't think this "maniac" is playing 33 or QT or even Q3s for value here, given effective stack sizes (I'm assuming $800 deep), calling is pretty dumb given u have $500 behind and u have the 2nd nuts, what more do u need to ship it.

Well I'm not advocating a call which I agree is the worst choice. It's definitely raise or fold in my opinion but realistically I don't see finding myself in that situation in the first place. K9, even soooted, is just a trap hand IMO. I find that hand most useful for making second best Straights and Flushes.

[FSL009]

When i said very little in the pot i meant very little invested in the pot of his own money.

I agree Martini. the table was full ring so he has 7 in before him and two to act behind and he is getting 10-1 on his limp...

enoguh to justify limping with that hand.  As you say though the hand is not great in flush and straight boards....

once yoour in any significant action on the flush just has to be honoured even if your ahead of their range generally.

I think the fold is good IMO even knowing the odds.   

[luckystraights]

So something that is probably mostly local issue.  in a 5/5 game here with the two guys on the table that are there the non-fish but not great player and the maniac a raise preflop to $20 is nowhere near enough neither is $200.  in fact our experience here is that you can not fold everyone at the table unless u shove pre.  great if your the tightest player in the world but not so great with K9s.

I think the limp for local reasons is good...if he hit top pair, or top two he is well placed.  the flush creates a real tricky spot.

he folded because of the smooth caller weak guy.  the reason being he could be crushed or at best he was drawing 60% fav.  which lucky on the range we used is pretty correct.   the fact is sure you have equity but with very little in the pot and second nuts there is always going to be a better spot to collect that payout from him for less risk.

I am okay with the fold.  although I also agree technically you have enough equity here to shove it.

Pre-flop i probably raise, although with such a weak hand in this game it is almost always better in this situaton to limp it - just cause you will get three callers as noted and have no better idea of their range anyway.  but you have just elevated a pot you had very little equity in pre-flop.

I think live is slightly different in ths regard as less people fold pre-flop.

If you guy's ever wonder why the guy's on 2p2 are always "OMFG lol, live players suck so much!", this hand is exactly why. Your a favorite to win a boat load of cash, if u can't stomach a 60/40 spot for $800 you should not be playing 5/5, and if your stubborn enough to play a limit which is clearly above your skill / br threshold then you should play it like a total nit, pretty much just set mine and look to flop nut hands... and fyi the 2nd nuts is a nut type hand, no one should ever fold here.

Your talking in contradictions, if these guys are bad enough to limp / call a $200 raise with $800 effective stacks to flop a piece of the board, there is no way in hell there folding any flush, any high fd or any 2pr or set, not stacking the 2nd nuts here is as sure a sign of scared money as there is, and is totally results orientated.

I don't mean to sound like a "****", but c'mon seriously... its v.hard to flop a flush, its hard enough to flop a set, so assuming someone has the nut flush when u flop 2nd best is pretty ludicrous.

[FSL009]

i agree Lucky i was arguing for the shove myself but figured it was more of a 65%+ situation.

anyway I think he had run him down to two hands sets or the nuts. so if you stove taht and remove all other possibilities then I think your behind or at best even, so in that case it is a clear fold.

check it for me.  Nut flush combos, sets.

[FSL009]

Lucky I know this is not as accurate but if you could put one opponent on a set say and the other on AsXos

then you have 46% equity in the pot, probably enough to continue given the pot odds are much better but your mostly losing.

If you broaden the range you can get it in better. 

fact is with the actual hands he was in fact 64% to win. 

I dont know but sometimes your just gonna let it go when you end up being the best hand cause from time to time you have to make a decision about whether your happy to go broke on your reads.  if your not then folding is always the better option and find another spot that is better placed. 

But on the stove you could clearly justify getting it in for sure.   

[luckystraights]

sorry, go back up and re-read my posts, specifically that last one. I'm not saying this to be rude or something, I want you to crush at the pokers, understanding why you can NEVER EVER fold in this spot is very important.

Even if I knew I was 46% to win, I'm fist pump shoving the money in, there is so much dead money for the taking, your still making money (pretty sure on this without running the math)... actually in fact I'll be fist pump calling and shoving a turn to keep the pot MW to improve my EV, but I'm still never folding... and your 60% to WIN!, the only way you EVER loose money in this spot is by FOLDING.

Advocating a fold here is "the S!" word and is 100% results orientated, folding here is loosing poker AINEC.

OMFG this thread is so tilting lol, I'm iffy on poker math, but I'm pretty sure if u have more then 33% equity in a pot and you can get 2 others to go AI then your making money... Which is why I said call then ship turn above.

Ignoring the drooler you have 40% equity vs the other guy if his range is only ever sets and made nut flushes, which is v.much on the nitty side. So to make money all u have to do is keep the drooler in, even if the drooler folds your probably getting enough in pot odds to get your money in, but u have a total drooler willing to play a big pot as well, so folding is in short -EV.

Board: Qs Ts 3s
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    39.110%     39.11%    00.00%              6195            0.00   { Ks9s }
Hand 1:    60.890%     60.89%    00.00%              9645            0.00   { QQ, TT, 33, AsKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s }

[FSL009]

I am not explaining myself well

It is 3am in the morning if he loses that pot he goes home.

so there is no rebuy opportunity in reality sure in hypothetical you just rebuy and should get it in.

but the reality is that people stop playing at a certain time.

The stack he is on is mostly profit.  he has a ttricky spot.  he considers it not enough % chance to risk 5 hours work on one hand given that he is likley to pack up if he lost.

i dont understand why that is not a non-tilting option...

sure if you play all day and night then this decision is easy shove.

if you are someone that has to get home at somepoint then you need to protect your stack a little and walk away from a profit makeing opportunity sometimes because the risk v return is not sufficient for you at that time

that is the great thing about poker his decisions doesnt have to be yours. and both are still right for each person.  i would have shoved personally...but am happy for the fold as well knowing that two hands later he picks up anohter $500 from the eventaul winner which is nearly half of what he missed out losing on the earlier hand...

results orientated - no i dont think so, it is situational.   Stop tilting...we both agree the optimal play on the hand is a shove.

We both agree that he shouldnt fold on the maths.  but he did and still remains happy with the decision given the situation he was in.
 

[NotFadeAway]

I'd be extremely happy I folded if I saw that I would have been outdrawn, too.  And I certainly understand where your friend is coming from with the idea of going home ahead (although I think lucky's head might asplode over that statement  .)  However, individual sessions don't mean anything.  The last hand of a session should, ideally, be treated like any other hand, with the assumption that it's all part of the same lifelong session, if that makes sense.  Getting conservative because you're ahead, or looser because you're stuck, is a terrible strategy that will be costly in the long run.
As for this hand, getting in with the second nuts is clearly (at least imo) the right play here, so your friend did make a massive mistake by folding.  If he can accept that and still be happy, then good for him.  It doesn't mean it was a good play, but people make plays that aren't good a lot, and it's obviously his decision, so if he's happy with it, that's fine.

[luckystraights]

I think I've explained everything as well as I can, and no one has shown math to disprove my assumptions or even discredit my ranges that where used, so I'll assume my hypothesis of doing anything but folding is correct, or at least that doing anything other then folding is at least BE.

This thread is tilting because, its all laid out and you gloss over it, calling makes you money, but you refuse to take that money because your scared of loosing a big pot just before you go home, we all face these spots, so many times I've been here and been like "omfg not now, ewww", so many times I've probably winced and folded (though never the 2nd nuts lol), but to do so for this reason is very much results orientated and is just stupid.

Someone did this very thing for me not too long ago, and that one thing has made me coming up to $9k, so I'll pass on that favour to you.

You suck, and your friend sucks too!

Now you can either go on as you are, or take a breath and consider what has been said, dare I say there are some very fundamental concepts outlined in the posts above and getting to grips with them will win you a lot of money. Realizing you suck is the first step to greatness.

[NotFadeAway]

I think I've explained everything as well as I can, and no one has shown math to disprove my assumptions or even discredit my ranges that where used, so I'll assume my hypothesis of doing anything but folding is correct, or at least that doing anything other then folding is at least BE.

This thread is tilting because, its all laid out and you gloss over it, calling makes you money, but you refuse to take that money because your scared of loosing a big pot just before you go home, we all face these spots, so many times I've been here and been like "omfg not now, ewww", so many times I've probably winced and folded (though never the 2nd nuts lol), but to do so for this reason is very much results orientated and is just stupid.

Someone did this very thing for me not too long ago, and that one thing has made me coming up to $9k, so I'll pass on that favour to you.

You suck, and your friend sucks too!

Now you can either go on as you are, or take a breath and consider what has been said, dare I say there are some very fundamental concepts outlined in the posts above and getting to grips with them will win you a lot of money. Realizing you suck is the first step to greatness.

I knew it!!!!!!!!!:

(Click to show/hide)

Seriously, though, despite lucky's less than friendly way of saying it, I do agree strongly about the calling.  However, if your friend is happy to fold and give away massive equity, that's his choice, and no one can force him to play differently.

[luckystraights]

lol'z

I say it with love. When someone told me I sucked, I was on my 3rd failed shot at 5nl, and yesterday I was playing 100nl, so it kinda worked out. That and watching a 6m vid by AMA033 was my major turn around in poker.

[Detroitdad]

Nothing wrong with the direct approach Lucky..............

[luckystraights]

Nothing wrong with the direct approach Lucky..............

Was I really that direct? I actually had 2 friends on 2p2 check my earlier posts to make sure I was making sense lol.

[DonkeyDonkDonkDonk]

Post made sense confirmed 

[luckystraights]

Post made sense confirmed 

hehe, was wondering if that was you lol.

Only just got back online after a computer problem, so I'm $1k'ish out of pocket, and falling way behind the pace I want for the ipoker bonus... hopefully I'll be grinding like crazy tomorrow to catch up.

[FSL009]

hey lucky

Above aside...

What handle to you play in ipoker...

I used one of the skins for the quest that i ran for a while and finalised a little while ago.

PM me and we will try and get a session together at some point.  cheers. 

[luckystraights]

I can't beat ipoker for the life of me, such a weird site, it plays like 2nl lol