Live tourney hand

[FSL009]

at a table with 35 people of 69 left.

I am under average stack (14050) I have about 12000 the blinds are 300/600.

it is a sat so 3 people get tickets and 4th gets some cash.

I have 88 in Mp   one caller ahead of me so i call.  caller behind me and SB completes BB checks.

flop is 346 rainbow.  checks to me I bet out 1200 half the pot.

fold, SB folds BB who is a TAG check raises me to 4700. so it is 3500 to call.  this is most of his stack. 

fold between us and then I am left with my call, shove him or fold.

thoughts?

 

 

[holdemholmes]

I would fold in this spot. In my opinion there are just too many hands that he could have that beat you in this spot, especially since he got a free flop. He could have check 3's, 4's, or 6's....or flopped 2 pair on that rough board. If the bet was most of his stack he's not likely to fold...I would say you were behind.

[Gregg729]

With this information, I'd fold.  But do you guys have a history of playing against each other, or playing at the same table at least?  You'd need some sorta past trend information to call, I think.  So much can beat you with him on the BB.  You can escape to live and fight another day, I don't see any compelling reason to make a stand here. 

Unless you have a confident read, fold.  Recognize that, if he had the best hand or the worst hand, he outplayed you in this particular situation.  Personally, I think you should have bet the pot or pot+ to get BB's off vulnerable hands and to expose callers/check-raisers as large threats to you.  Depends on your table obviously.  The more info I have on the other guy, the better decision I can make...

[Martini]

If he's TAG then dump it. You're almost certainly behind.

[Nerre]

There you have the big problem with just limping pre flop: The BB gets a freeroll and can have ANY hand.

I hate giving someone a free card, and I love when people give me free cards:-)

In the situation as described I'd fold. He could have 75 or even 52.

There is a saying like "any hand worth calling with is also worth raising with", and even though it sometimes can feel "to expensive" I have the feeling that raising (rather than calling) pre flop makes your choices easier post flop.

88 against one player is 69%.
88 against two players is 50%.
88 against four players (any hand) is just 30%.

So, you don't want those other three limpers, and not the checking BB. Raising hopefully eliminates one or two of them.

[Detroitdad]

As stated, fold. I'm guessing you only called with 88 to set mine. You didn't hit your set so go away.

[luckystraights]

first thought is fold pre, your too deep to stack off, and not deep enough to set mine, and you'll face an overcard on the flop most of the time.

o.wait, by call do u mean limp? if someone limped in, I depending on his stack size and tendencies I might take a really aggressive approach and make a committing or "looks committing" raise, and either get it in or fold depending on who gives me action.

As tempting as it is to over limp, I'm not a fan of it, I would expect to get raised most of the time, and your not deep enough to call, in an aggressive game I don't mind over limping and shoving over any isolation raise though, as 88 is likely best and vs an wide isolation range you'll have a lot of fe.

as played, flop is always a b/f, a tag is never stacking worse here IMO.

[luckystraights]

Unless you have a confident read, fold.  Recognize that, if he had the best hand or the worst hand, he outplayed you in this particular situation.  Personally, I think you should have bet the pot or pot+ to get BB's off vulnerable hands and to expose callers/check-raisers as large threats to you.  Depends on your table obviously.  The more info I have on the other guy, the better decision I can make...

hold on there, how on earth did he outplay hero? Hero folding in a marginal spot is not being outplayed. Betting the pot here is wasting chips, as your only picking up dead money "no worse will call or stack off [ not enough worse], and half pot achieves that. From what I understand of tourney's 1/2 pot is a common bet size on a dry board such as this, so shouldn't be read as weak, even though hero's range is predominantly weak OVP's / sets, which could produce a profitable bluff spot for the BB, but its unlikely to be taken up often.

[FSL009]

thanks for the responses

i folded.

I have only played with the guy in this game, he was clear TAG as played very few hands.  i think his raise was either a better hand or a total bluff as a half pot bet in most games at my local casino is a weak move. but even so I could not commit my stack there on that hand to much has me crushed.

We had two and a half hours of experience of each other. so without a better read I was not ready to go.

If pre-flop some had raised out of the blinds or in late positon i was planning to shove.  and commit them to a big pot where i probably would have the best hand.  I called a limp lucky so there was already good value in the pot.  i could have over shoved but again wanted to make the extra money if I hit my set.  Even with a raise there i am getting little value for the risk of the limper limping with a bigger pair and over shoving me.

so that is why I limped and then bet after they all checked (I had one behind me in the end)

Anyway, just wanted to see if anyone could justify shoving in that spot other than having the best of reads which I didnt have.   

[Martini]

If the guy is tight then I think the absolute *best* case scenario for you would be something like 45 or 56. You'd be ahead but still need to fade 13 outs to take down the pot. So you might be as good as a fat coin flip or crushed. Bad spot.

[Gregg729]

Unless you have a confident read, fold.  Recognize that, if he had the best hand or the worst hand, he outplayed you in this particular situation.  Personally, I think you should have bet the pot or pot+ to get BB's off vulnerable hands and to expose callers/check-raisers as large threats to you.  Depends on your table obviously.  The more info I have on the other guy, the better decision I can make...

hold on there, how on earth did he outplay hero? Hero folding in a marginal spot is not being outplayed. Betting the pot here is wasting chips, as your only picking up dead money "no worse will call or stack off [ not enough worse], and half pot achieves that. From what I understand of tourney's 1/2 pot is a common bet size on a dry board such as this, so shouldn't be read as weak, even though hero's range is predominantly weak OVP's / sets, which could produce a profitable bluff spot for the BB, but its unlikely to be taken up often.

Fair enough, definitely a good point.  Here on the boards, I almost always tend to play devil's advocate and try and find a different route - but that aside, you're definitely right.  I'm not sure what I was thinking but I bet my first night on the town since the summertime had something to do with it.

As far as the being outplayed thing, FSL played the hand fine.  But the villain made a raise that gave him no choice but to fold.  I didn't mean outwitted, I meant it in terms of being forced to commit or give up on the hand.  But they both bet right to get the information they needed.

Sorry FSL, wasn't disparaging your decision-making!

[Blaster]

thanks for the responses

i
If pre-flop some had raised out of the blinds or in late positon i was planning to shove.   and commit them to a big pot where i probably would have the best hand.  I called a limp lucky so there was already good value in the pot.  i could have over shoved but again wanted to make the extra money if I hit my set.  Even with a raise there i am getting little value for the risk of the limper limping with a bigger pair and over shoving me.

so that is why I limped and then bet after they all checked (I had one behind me in the end)

Anyway, just wanted to see if anyone could justify shoving in that spot other than having the best of reads which I didnt have.   

I disagree with the bolded part.  No reason to at best be in a coin flip pre w/ 8's.
 You most likley let the BB see a free flop with a hand he would have folded to a pre raise, & he hit a straight or 2 pr. You should have made a 2.5-3x raise pre, & most likley would have taken the pot right there, especially if you had no reason to believe the players yet to act were maniacs that would call a raise w/ any 2.
 At a minimum you would probably have narrowed the field to 1 caller holding 2 broadway cards or Ace suited, &  the flop would have then been great for you in that situation.. 

[luckystraights]

Here on the boards, I almost always tend to play devil's advocate and try and find a different route

Its appreciated, many cooks make an interesting and flavorful dish :-)

[FSL009]

Sorry FSL, wasn't disparaging your decision-making!

didnt take it that way...anyway i dont make great decisions all the time and the only ones (hands) up here are the ones that i want feedback good or bad.  if you dont post up your carp play you can not get better if everyone thinks you did the right thing or can not argue a different way....

all feedback appreicated no matter what.

I disagree with the bolded part.  No reason to at best be in a coin flip pre w/ 8's.
 You most likley let the BB see a free flop with a hand he would have folded to a pre raise, & he hit a straight or 2 pr. You should have made a 2.5-3x raise pre, & most likley would have taken the pot right there, especially if you had no reason to believe the players yet to act were maniacs that would call a raise w/ any 2.
 At a minimum you would probably have narrowed the field to 1 caller holding 2 broadway cards or Ace suited, &  the flop would have then been great for you in that situation.. 

Yeah agreed, i dont think that came out right.  I was planning to shove any weak player, it depended on who it was.  there were a few weak links on the table.  but given that there was two in before me...I think or one and the prospect of another couple behind me and the blinds I figured by the time it got to me that a set mine was the better player as i was clearly going to get my 9-1 odds to make it profitable to fold post flop. 

I think my bad move was making a bet of half rather than full pot or the alternative whichw as less so i folded to a less bet, but then I had less info available to a reraise.

I think that if i put more in they might have respected my bet more if they bluffed me, if I put in less i fold still but lose more.

if I raise I have to raise 4x with the extra limper and that is more than i bet in the end which was 3x.  and 4x is a big chunck of my chips at that stage.  with the extra risk comes extra rewards i guess...I take down a bigger limped pot or take blinds and one limper...

I dont know anyway i liked my play except not sure about the fold...I think he bluffed me and i can not let go of it...but anyway.

 

[luckystraights]

You can't raise / fold IMO as your committing too much of your stack. Also you didn't mention if there were ante's or not with ante's, perhaps depending on the size, I'm happy to just shove this pre.

Apparently live games are a joke so w/e, but online at least betting anymore then 1/2 pot on the flop would be a leak imo, as 1/2 pot gets exactly the same response as pot, and why would u lead pot when u can easily commit anyway with a set on what is a relatively dry board.

IMHO, your mistake is not how you played the hand, more that u didn't have a plan for the hand, u presumably just bet the flop, and decided what to do when u got raised, this is typically bad and puts you in situation where your more prone to making costly calls or doubting if your fold was good. In future assess the player and decide what your doing before you make your move, that way your not time banking down and throwing your chips away, only to regret it later. [This is covered in a well known poker text, though I can't remember which, maybe NLHETAP or in Playing Professionally]

Also you said this guy is TAG, TAG as in Tight Aggressive, tight players are typically way more tight then they are aggressive, the only 2 hands this guy can raise / call here that you beat (given stack size he won't raise / fold) imo are 55 and 77, so at worse he has 6 outs too beat u if u call (four 5's and two 7's), on the other hand is real value range of sets, 2pr and straight have u totaly crushed with literally no hope to win.

Nah actually there are a few worse hands he can shove like A5, but not many. If u wanted to stack off u should c/r to induce bluffs, as is betting range will typically be wider then is calling range, though u over represent your hand a lot, which would make it thin.

EDIT: I've tired coming up with a range in stove. For a TAG to make a committing re-raise here I v.much doubt he will shove any wider then this which is pretty wide, I've excluded total air and only 1 over pair to your 88 (99), but I think I've included any straight draw or pr / draw combo's. If you think is range is this wide [which I doubt being a TAG player] then including dead mone you can probably stack off and be at least BE, though I'm not sure how that translates to your specific tourney situation and if his range is vs wide, you need to c/r this flop and not b/3b it imo.

Board: 3d 4s 6c
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    48.113%     47.66%    00.45%            404868         3816.00   { 88 }
Hand 1:    51.887%     51.44%    00.45%            436920         3816.00   { 99, 77-33, A7s, A5s, K5s, Q5s, J5s, T5s, 95s, 85s, 75s+, 65s, 52s, A7o, A5o, 76o, 65o, 52o+ }

[FSL009]

thanks Lucky.

I did have a plan...I bet the flop with an over pair with one behind me to act who i knew would fold and i expected get everyone else who checked before me to fold.  i was in late position remember.

Remember this guy checked in the BB then raised my bet as a TAG.

So his range is much smaller than you put him on he could have limped with 10s IMO as well and he is likely sitting on 56 for the top pair plus open ender at worse.  he could also have two pair combos.  given he checked in from the BB.  like 64, 63, 34. 

i think my equity looks pretty sick on that basis.

but i did have a plan for the hand, i bet half the pot and evaluate who post flop raises me.  in the hand at the time of my late position half pot bet were two TAGs one behind me and the BB and two LAGs, one good one and one poor one.

If the poor one had done it I probably over shove as he has a very wide range of hands he could do this with.

Smart one and two TAGs i fold to a re-raise.

but the key to remember i think is that this was a check raise play against me that mostly got me to thinking that it was a hand i could not beat or a pure bluff/draw.

anyway i think that the % of the time that it is two pair is large enough that i have to fold cause i am crushed.

But restove it to check cause i am only going of my head.  I would think that his range is two pair combos, the 5x combos and although I think he is capable of 9s and 10s checking BUT for the purpose of stove at this time and with his stack he should have over shoved or at least raised with 10s and 9s.  So I would discount them. Preflop i think his stack was slightly less than mine.  probably a few thousand less as he only had about 2000 left behind after the check raise - lets say he was committed to the hand after he check raised me although i dont think he was a great short stack player and probably doesnt totally understand M given what i saw as if he did he would have just check shoved me instead of holding some back.

anyway see how stove turns up with all of that.

there were no ante's we dont have many tourneys with Ante here.

[luckystraights]

but i did have a plan for the hand, i bet half the pot and evaluate who post flop raises me.  in the hand at the time of my late position half pot bet were two TAGs one behind me and the BB and two LAGs, one good one and one poor one.

- haven't finished reading your reply yet - but I'll re-word this has its a pretty huge thing for nlhe success, and the more often u do it, the better you results will be.

"You need to evaluate your reaction to a reaction to your bet before you bet", here's two examples.

1. I probably have the best hand, this guy is really tight if he raises me I'm beat, so I'm going to bet / fold vs him and go for one more street of value if he calls.

2. This guy is a total maniac TPTK is well ahead of his range, if he re-raises me on vs wet board I will 3b and play for stacks on the flop.

This is because, you can talk yourself out of making the correct descion when u don't decide what to do before hand, u suddenly get thoughts and emotions over taking your thought process and it increases the likelihood of making a mistake.

You of course can also do.

I have TP vs a fish and a tight player, I'm going to bet for value vs the fish, but if the tight player c/r's me I will fold. Cause you decided before u bet, your not second guessing yourself if u get check raised and potentially talking yourself into stacking off cause now u think he will check-raise with a FD as well as 2pr / set.

[luckystraights]

given bet sizing, is range is more likely to be value orientated actually.

I've included 50% of 99 combo's, and excluded TT, I've also dropped the lower 5x hands that don't have a pair, as I think he his less likely to c/r without going all in with these weaker naked draws.

Board: 3d 4s 6c
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    41.979%     41.16%    00.82%            391215         7749.00   { 88 }
Hand 1:    58.021%     57.21%    00.82%            543687         7749.00   { 9c9d, 9d9h, 9h9s, 88-33, A5s, A2s, K5s, Q5s, J5s, 75s+, 63s+, 53s+, 43s, A2o, 75o+, 63o+, 52o+, 43o }

[FSL009]

yeah thanks lucky.

i think it is pretty clear that i am way behind his range...I think as a range that is probably a reasonable indicator