Donk play killing me

[Fat Duck]

I think Ive just about had it with this game. NLTH                     Some peoples rational I just don't understand.

I'm in middle position with a Jk and raise 3 times BB. My friend, "well call him nick, just calls from the SB.

The flop is Q10 3, I bet he calls, turn is a 6, I bet he calls, river is 5 I bet he calls and turns over a AK. Winning the pot with A high.  I don't get it. This was still the beginning of the game and I just don't understand how you don't give your opponent credit for at least a pair.


This is the same guy who calls 30% of his stack with 4 card to a straight on the broad and has 3 button and is actually surprised he didn't win.

This is the same guy who when made a nut straight, only calls the last bet, never raised with the nuts EVER.


So I find it hard to believe that this guy, who has so many holes in his game, can clip me off a pot with sniper like accuracy. Like he just "knows I have nothing"  Thats just BS.     Even the worst pllayer can have a hand. How can a person Call all the way like that with not even a pair.   He just gets so lucky not to have his a** handed to him when he makes a play like that.


If I were to play like that , Of course the guy would have a par of 3's and I would lose a lot of money and look completely stupid in the mean time. But him...........it works.             sigh>>.............


Need advise from the rounders.

Duck

[Detroitdad]

You did play a garbage hand.............it happens.

[Fat Duck]

You did play a garbage hand.............it happens.

Really, You never mix it up or play small suited connectors or something like that.. I reallize JK isnt the stongest hand in the game but from middle with a preflop rasie, Its garbage?

Cant wait for AA KK QQ AK all night, can I.

But lets say it isnt the stongest hand, How do you defeat players lwho play like this? 


im just lost.

[Detroitdad]

Yes, I do mix it up. However in Tourney's I "mix it up less" than in cash games.

I have no problem raising with K/J in middle position (as long as I'm the first into the pot, I'm assuming you were). You flopped an open ended straight draw. Great.............You fire again, he calls..........Then you fire every round, and he calls every round. From your description of him, it sounds like you have a history with this guy, and you know this is how he plays. If he truly is an idiot, then your biggest mistake is trying to bluff him out of this hand. You can't bluff somebody that doesn't understand the game.

I made the same mistake last night. I fired three bullets at Keith. I know Keith's range of hands is wiiiiiiiiiide, and I know he doesn't like to let his hands go. When I lost half my stack, it was only my fault, not Keith's.

You firing three bullets with nothing against a maniac is your fault, not the maniac's fault. You know he sucks, yet you still did it. Learn from this and don't do it again.

Now, to answer your question, you wait for a monster hand and crush him. K/J, and flopping an open ended Straight draw isn't a monster hand.

B

[Martini]

Yeah, I guess betting with no hand against a pure calling station is pretty donkish play. I can see why it's killing you.

Ha ha, just kidding...kinda.

[Fat Duck]

OK guys, good points.   

I guess I'm just more interested in the thought proses of calling the whole way with no pair. I never done that in a early tourney ever in my life and I doubt I will.   



With my betting, I was applying enough pressure that should have been enough to shake any ace high off the pot.  It didnt work, I know, but still,   Betting with nothing and calling with nothing, are very different in the world of poker. I have a open ended but straight draw, but I know My man is weak. Ace high is weak.

How is it that a player can call all the streets with no pair? 

Is it  something Im missing in my own playing style?

[Detroitdad]

Sir,

You fire 4 bullets at me, I promise I fold my Ace High. You weren't playing me though. You weren't even playing somebody that understands betting patterns, odds, ect.....Forget about the cards in your hands and his. That doesn't matter. You made a move against a bad player. You should almost never, ever, never do that.

The main problem with the hand that you describe is, you weren't playing the player.

[holdemholmes]

Sir,

You fire 4 bullets at me, I promise I fold my Ace High. You weren't playing me though. You weren't even playing somebody that understands betting patterns, odds, ect.....Forget about the cards in your hands and his. That doesn't matter. You made a move against a bad player. You should almost never, ever, never do that.

The main problem with the hand that you describe is, you weren't playing the player.

What is it that they say....you can only bluff a GOOD player.

[Martini]

Who knows what his exact thought process was. Probably the most generous assessment would be that he had two overs and a gutshot to Broadway assuming you had a hand like Q/rag for ten outs. Some people just don't like folding their hands i.e. a good starting hand like AK. You see people with pocket Threes holding on when there are five over cards by the River and paying off a paired Ace. Can't explain what the rationale is but by the same token, who cares? You have a calling station who will pay you off whenever you have it. If you had never played against the guy before then I can understand your quandary more but you have previously observed him a) paying off a four liner to a Straight and b) never raising with the Nuts. So not only are you firing bullets at an ingorant target but he could possibly have you so far behind that even pairing either of your hole cards wouldn't be good enough. Lamenting that a known calling station "should have folded" is, as DD points out, not exactly good poker.

Btw, there's no way I'm calling four streets with a naked AK there either. Then again, I'm not raising with KJ in middle position either.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

What is it that they say....you can only bluff a GOOD player.

You can also bluff a tight bad player.  Not all bad players are loose calling stations or maniacs.  A straightforward, 'solid' player certainly can be bad, as can a weak-tight player.  But yeah, the OP seems to say that he knows that they call way too much and tried to bluff through against that type of player.  Seems like impatience might be an issue for you, imo.

[Fat Duck]

Who knows what his exact thought process was. Probably the most generous assessment would be that he had two overs and a gutshot to Broadway assuming you had a hand like Q/rag for ten outs. Some people just don't like folding their hands i.e. a good starting hand like AK. You see people with pocket Threes holding on when there are five over cards by the River and paying off a paired Ace. Can't explain what the rationale is but by the same token, who cares? You have a calling station who will pay you off whenever you have it. If you had never played against the guy before then I can understand your quandary more but you have previously observed him a) paying off a four liner to a Straight and b) never raising with the Nuts. So not only are you firing bullets at an ingorant target but he could possibly have you so far behind that even pairing either of your hole cards wouldn't be good enough. Lamenting that a known calling station "should have folded" is, as DD points out, not exactly good poker.

Btw, there's no way I'm calling four streets with a naked AK there either. Then again, I'm not raising with KJ in middle position either.

Fair enough....But you got to remember, I cant choose who follows me into the pot. If I'm in their with a calling station, it just happens.   I played the best I knew how at the given time.   And these guys are killing me.

Thank You Martini and Detroit for your honest criticisms. Much Appreciated

Duck

[Detroitdad]

Who knows what his exact thought process was. Probably the most generous assessment would be that he had two overs and a gutshot to Broadway assuming you had a hand like Q/rag for ten outs. Some people just don't like folding their hands i.e. a good starting hand like AK. You see people with pocket Threes holding on when there are five over cards by the River and paying off a paired Ace. Can't explain what the rationale is but by the same token, who cares? You have a calling station who will pay you off whenever you have it. If you had never played against the guy before then I can understand your quandary more but you have previously observed him a) paying off a four liner to a Straight and b) never raising with the Nuts. So not only are you firing bullets at an ingorant target but he could possibly have you so far behind that even pairing either of your hole cards wouldn't be good enough. Lamenting that a known calling station "should have folded" is, as DD points out, not exactly good poker.

Btw, there's no way I'm calling four streets with a naked AK there either. Then again, I'm not raising with KJ in middle position either.

Fair enough....But you got to remember, I cant choose who follows me into the pot. If I'm in their with a calling station, it just happens.   I played the best I knew how at the given time.   And these guys are killing me.

Thank You Martini and Detroit for your honest criticisms. Much Appreciated

Duck

Your welcome, I learn new tactics and info from these threads all the time. I want to keep getting better.

You can't choose who follows you in (even though I slightly disagree, by adjusting your betting patterns you can try to get heads up with certain players), but what you can do is choose how to play Post Flop vs the opponents that do follow you in.

Google Post Flop NLHE Play. I'm sure you can find some tips and suggestions. Post flop play is one of the hardest aspects of NLHE.

B

[Martini]

Who knows what his exact thought process was. Probably the most generous assessment would be that he had two overs and a gutshot to Broadway assuming you had a hand like Q/rag for ten outs. Some people just don't like folding their hands i.e. a good starting hand like AK. You see people with pocket Threes holding on when there are five over cards by the River and paying off a paired Ace. Can't explain what the rationale is but by the same token, who cares? You have a calling station who will pay you off whenever you have it. If you had never played against the guy before then I can understand your quandary more but you have previously observed him a) paying off a four liner to a Straight and b) never raising with the Nuts. So not only are you firing bullets at an ingorant target but he could possibly have you so far behind that even pairing either of your hole cards wouldn't be good enough. Lamenting that a known calling station "should have folded" is, as DD points out, not exactly good poker.

Btw, there's no way I'm calling four streets with a naked AK there either. Then again, I'm not raising with KJ in middle position either.

Fair enough....But you got to remember, I cant choose who follows me into the pot. If I'm in their with a calling station, it just happens.   I played the best I knew how at the given time.   And these guys are killing me.

Thank You Martini and Detroit for your honest criticisms. Much Appreciated

Duck

No, you can't choose who follows you in, though presumably a calling station would see more Flops than the average player. However, once you head to the Flop then you *do* know who is in the pot with you. And since he is checking to you each street from the SB it costs you nothing to try to make your hand. If you get lucky and have an Ace come off then you can ride the bus to Valuetown. On the other hand you could lose a bunch if you fire multiple times then catch you K on the end.

I actually just noticed that that was posted in the Bad Beat section so I apologize for making strategy comments. However I'll also point out that you were behind every step of the hand in contrast to being ahead and getting sucked out on.

[NotFadeAway]

Don't try bluffing someone you know rarely folds.  Also, the comment that you 'can't help who's in the pot with you' shows a big problem.  As Martini stated, you do know who's in the pot with you, and you have to make your decisions based on that.  Just saying, 'I have x and will play it like...' no matter what is first level thinking.  You have to think about what your opponent likely holds and will likely do when you make whatever moves you're going to make.  Don't just make the 'right' play no matter what.  Your opponent is more important than your hand when you have nothing, so make sure you base your decisions on whether or not to fire again (and how much) on whether or not you opponent WILL fold, instead of whether or not he 'SHOULD' fold.

[stooks99]

There is one generic peice of advice that is universal to all questions:  Play better than the people you play against.

[Dr. Neau]

I think Ive just about had it with this game. NLTH                     Some peoples rational I just don't understand.

I'm in middle position with a Jk and raise 3 times BB. My friend, "well call him nick, just calls from the SB.

The flop is Q10 3, I bet he calls, turn is a 6, I bet he calls, river is 5 I bet he calls and turns over a AK. Winning the pot with A high.  I don't get it. This was still the beginning of the game and I just don't understand how you don't give your opponent credit for at least a pair.

Uh...that's not really donk play...

I've won a LOT of money off of dinks overbetting pre-flop and then continuing to bet their draw that never hits.

[luckystraights]

I'm too tired, lazy to post something of any real use, but cliff notes.

KJo or KJs, is a pretty standard raise pre, flop bet is good, unless its a reg and u can assign a range that will fold to a turn bet, just take a free card, when he calls 2 streets, betting the turn isn't all that bad if he's floating the flop OOP w ace high, but barreling the river is tilt inducing, ldo.

Know that this guy called u with A high on the river, acknowledge it and stop firing multiple barrels at him, instead start value betting thinly (if he calls with A high, bet MP or TP no kicker for value).

You want to play with "donks", or at least fish if the agro monkey's put u on super tilt, if u can't beat the donks, you are not playing well enough, its a hard truth to swallow, but accepting your limitations will dramatically increase your win rate.

huh, maybe there was a nugget of usefulness in there... maybe

[luckystraights]

But lets say it isnt the stongest hand, How do you defeat players lwho play like this?  

This is my favorite question to answer, as even I can't fail lol, so I'll add this:

KJo in MP, raise to 4xBB

flop comes K98 rainbow, vilalin checks, u bet 3/4'ish, turn is 2 villain checks u bet 3/4 pot, river is T, villain checks, u shove, vilalin calls and shows JT, u  

value bet, value bet, value bet

[TwoToGo-Grave]

I'm too tired, lazy to post something of any real use, but cliff notes.

KJo or KJs, is a pretty standard raise pre, flop bet is good, unless its a reg and u can assign a range that will fold to a turn bet, just take a free card, when he calls 2 streets, betting the turn isn't all that bad if he's floating the flop OOP w ace high, but barreling the river is tilt inducing, ldo.

Know that this guy called u with A high on the river, acknowledge it and stop firing multiple barrels at him, instead start value betting thinly (if he calls with A high, bet MP or TP no kicker for value).

You want to play with "donks", or at least fish if the agro monkey's put u on super tilt, if u can't beat the donks, you are not playing well enough, its a hard truth to swallow, but accepting your limitations will dramatically increase your win rate.

huh, maybe there was a nugget of usefulness in there... maybe

Excellent post, and I certainly agree with everything you said here.

But lets say it isnt the stongest hand, How do you defeat players lwho play like this?  

This is my favorite question to answer, as even I can't fail lol, so I'll add this:

KJo in MP, raise to 4xBB

flop comes K98 rainbow, vilalin checks, u bet 3/4'ish, turn is 2 villain checks u bet 3/4 pot, river is T, villain checks, u shove, vilalin calls and shows JT, u  

value bet, value bet, value bet

To attempt to add something to this (though what you wrote is certainly true), in any ONE HAND, of course you may not be ahead, but poker's not about one hand.  If you're ahead most of the time that you're throwing out those value bets, that's what you're looking for.  It's a long term game, so if they're weak players who call down light consistently, you still won't win every time that you try to value bet, but you just have to, essentially, win more times that you don't.  If they're the way that you describe, lucky's scenario (or a likewise positive one) will come up much more often than them turning over top two on you, after all.

[djexacto]

Do the same thing when you have a hand and get paid off IMO

[Gregg729]

In one of the leagues I play, there are several guys like this - and they drive me crazy too.  Like others said, you just need to be in pot control mode when you don't know where you're at and make him pay when you're sitting on a winner.

Your preflop raise is fine and so is a bet on the flop given an open-ender.  But wire fire off even one more shot at this point?  Sounds like you already know you're not gonna shove him off the hand.  You know it's going down to a showdown and you don't have any idea if you're ahead or behind, so shut down the betting.  This kind of player will almost always be content to check it down after your betting - and if he doesn't, you know it's probably time to bail. 

[Dr. Neau]

Hey, I just realized...

Why is this thread in the bad beat stories?  This isn't a bad beat by *anyone's* standard.

[Blaster]

 The way you describe him there's no doubt he's a calling station/weak player. He should have folded for sure on the turn, if not the flop.
 Also as many others mentioned your play wasn't optimal either. You asked how he could do what he did "early" in the tourn ... Equally, why are you firing off your chips at every street, without a made hand, after getting called pre & post,  early in the tourn too?   You even said he was not the type of player to re-raise, even with the nuts, & he's calling you ...
 It sounds like by his description, If you would have checked he would have given you a free card, & If he would have bet the Turn after you check, You have useful info & can get away from the hand....
   

[Gobbs]

I think Ive just about had it with this game. NLTH                     Some peoples rational I just don't understand.

I'm in middle position with a Jk and raise 3 times BB. My friend, "well call him nick, just calls from the SB.

The flop is Q10 3, I bet he calls, turn is a 6, I bet he calls, river is 5 I bet he calls and turns over a AK. Winning the pot with A high.  I don't get it. This was still the beginning of the game and I just don't understand how you don't give your opponent credit for at least a pair.


This is the same guy who calls 30% of his stack with 4 card to a straight on the broad and has 3 button and is actually surprised he didn't win.

This is the same guy who when made a nut straight, only calls the last bet, never raised with the nuts EVER.


So I find it hard to believe that this guy, who has so many holes in his game, can clip me off a pot with sniper like accuracy. Like he just "knows I have nothing"  Thats just BS.     Even the worst pllayer can have a hand. How can a person Call all the way like that with not even a pair.   He just gets so lucky not to have his a** handed to him when he makes a play like that.


If I were to play like that , Of course the guy would have a par of 3's and I would lose a lot of money and look completely stupid in the mean time. But him...........it works.             sigh>>.............


Need advise from the rounders.

Duck

Without reading a single answer to the OP, I have to ask, are you they guy who continually tries to bluff a player whom you know to be a calling station?

KC

NOTE: I went back and read some posts after I posted this.  I see others gave the same advice and it fell on ears that didn't want to hear it.

[holdemholmes]

Without reading a single answer to the OP, I have to ask, are you they guy who continually tries to bluff a player whom you know to be a calling station?

KC

NOTE: I went back and read some posts after I posted this.  I see others gave the same advice and it fell on ears that didn't want to hear it.

This is why I didn't respond any further....

[Magoddi]

To the Op.  Dude,  it sucks that he called you down all the way with Ace high.  Use it as a learning experience and don't give up.

[DeadHand]

You bet on every round.  You were on a draw.  You had nothing.  You didn't give the other player credit.  You have seen the way he played before, seeing that he doesn't fold.  Yet you bet into him with nothing.  You had nothing and bet into a player who has proved before that he would call.  He has shown that he would call you all the way and you still bet with nothing.  And you are calling him a donkey?  Learn to control your own play and learn how to take advantage of a calling station. 

[Dr. Neau]

You bet on every round.  You were on a draw.  You had nothing.  You didn't give the other player credit.  You have seen the way he played before, seeing that he doesn't fold.  Yet you bet into him with nothing.  You had nothing and bet into a player who has proved before that he would call.  He has shown that he would call you all the way and you still bet with nothing.  And you are calling him a donkey?  Learn to control your own play and learn how to take advantage of a calling station. 

Blunt, but true.

[Drawinded]

I would imagine that he gets it by now.

[Gobbs]

You bet on every round.  You were on a draw.  You had nothing.  You didn't give the other player credit.  You have seen the way he played before, seeing that he doesn't fold.  Yet you bet into him with nothing.  You had nothing and bet into a player who has proved before that he would call.  He has shown that he would call you all the way and you still bet with nothing.  And you are calling him a donkey?  Learn to control your own play and learn how to take advantage of a calling station. 

I swear this is not me in disguise!!!!  Well said, though.

KC

[FSL009]

mmmmm 

can I suggest re-reading (dare i say it) Phil Hellmouths Poker book specifically the animal types section ignore the rest.  you can rename them but they basically align to calling stations, rocks, etc. 

others probably deal with it as well but i can not remember a book name other than this one that I know definatley has it in.

Cheers

[Dr. Neau]

mmmmm 

can I suggest re-reading (dare i say it) Phil Hellmouths Poker book specifically the animal types section ignore the rest.  you can rename them but they basically align to calling stations, rocks, etc. 

others probably deal with it as well but i can not remember a book name other than this one that I know definatley has it in.

Cheers

Play Poker Like the Pros!