Why the 20X BB for shoving thumbrule?

[Gregg729]

I have played an awful lot of poker over the past 5 years.  From being a poker junkie in general, I have somehow managed to get myself in the loop of 6 to 8 home leagues across the state (how?  I honestly don't know how I finagled this...).  I also play semi-regularly at a couple local cardrooms, and then there's this bar league I started at during my home league's offseason.  I've only been to Foxwoods or Mohegan a handful of times and I always play the cash games down there, never a tournament.  I'm not saying this to brag but to make an observation that leads into a question. 

I've never been in a field where 20XBB is considered the allin threshold, not even close.  I'm estimating most players start shoving at 6-8 BB's, and I realize this is due to their lack of understanding of when to shove.  However, even the good players don't start shoving until 8-10 BB's.  Myself and a handful of other players that I've come across probably use the 10-15 BB range, myself usually staying in the 10-12 neighborhood - I'll even sag to 8 BB's if I'm at a tight short-handed table to get one more orbit to see a better place to make my stand.  Never 20 though.

One thing to note is that very few people around here are aware of the M concept - which doesn't really matter too much seeing how none of the public card games none of the home games I've been to have antes in their structure.  And no antes must surely account for at least some of the lower shoving threshold out here.... right? 

So I guess I'm getting at some questions that have been on my mind for a long time but haven't gotten around to asking. 

What is the basis for the 20XBB for shoving?  IMHO, it seems that there is room to play one more hand before the allin threshold is reached, or at least to see one more flop and make a play on it...

Is there a general thumbrule in terms of M?  I don't play online too much these days, and none of the live games I play use antes - but I'm just curious if there is so I'm aware of it if I get in a game with antes.

I'm curious, do your home games and noncasino cardroom games see pretty much a 20XBB all in as the pretty much standard play? 

And lastly, if I'm in a region that apparently has a different standard than the rest of the poker world - that is, pretty much no one uses the 20 BB's rule here - is it more advantageous to stick with the 20XBB guideline or "speak their language" so to speak and not shove until the 10-12 BB range?

Thoughts?

[Gregg729]

I totally forgot about this post.

So no one can offer any explanation for the 20X thumbrule, yet it's gospel for some....

[Detroitdad]

I had meant to respond to this and had forgotten.

What is the basis for the 20XBB for shoving?  IMHO, it seems that there is room to play one more hand before the allin threshold is reached, or at least to see one more flop and make a play on it...

20 might be a tad high, for me it depends on how many players are still at the table and where are all the chips allocated? Does one or two players have all the chips? or are they spread around the table? I'm more of a 10-15 BB Shove myself, but if its still a full table then I will relax this and be more tempted to shove at 20 BB's. If the chips are spread around and there isn't many players that are dominating, I will be tempted to shove at 20 BB's. However, if there are a few players that have most of the chips and will call a 200k raise with 10/J os, then I might be tempted to drop my "shove" to the 10 x the BB rule.


I'm curious, do your home games and noncasino cardroom games see pretty much a 20XBB all in as the pretty much standard play? No, I would say ours for the most part falls into the 6-10 BB rule except for a few of us.


And lastly, if I'm in a region that apparently has a different standard than the rest of the poker world - that is, pretty much no one uses the 20 BB's rule here - is it more advantageous to stick with the 20XBB guideline or "speak their language" so to speak and not shove until the 10-12 BB range?

If you know their folding unless they have a monster, or are down to 10 BB's, I'm playing even more aggressive at the 20 BB mark.

Back to the first question, it all depends on who is at my table, my perception of them, and where all the chips are at as to how I'm playing between the 10-20 BB rule. I hate getting less than 10 x's the BB. It does happen occasionally though.

B

[troysteelerfan]

Most of the tournament - home games that I play in people don't have much of an idea in my opinion about when they should shove.  I also don't think they have much understanding of M -

(Click to show/hide)

(side note - its my understanding of M that antes don't necessarily have to be involved in the calculation of M - obviously antes will lower Ms but M should be the SB plus the BB if no antes are involved) -

and let themselves get very shortstacked....as to when I shove there are a lot of factors involved....I usually try to pick a spot no lower than 10-12 BB - or an M of around 6-10 times the starting pot....and in addition to my stack I also consider can I be the first person to enter the pot (what Harrington calls "fist in vigorish", who is behind me and yet to act, what are the payouts, how many people are left in the tourney, do I really want action or would I rather just take the pot down without a flop, my position at the table (how many more hands before I will be in the blinds again) ... my general feeling on shoving with 10-12 X the BB is I want my stack to be big enough that it still "hurts" if someone calls and loses....my experience with players that get to short usually get called by folks who might otherwise not call but called just because the stack was so small it wasn't a big deal to call

[K ALL IN 9]

My general feeling on shoving with 10-12 X the BB is I want my stack to be big enough that it still "hurts" if someone calls and loses....my experience with players that get to short usually get called by folks who might otherwise not call but called just because the stack was so small it wasn't a big deal to call

True that. There have been many times when i was the overwhelming chip leader and called a lot of all ins with less than mediocre hands hoping to be live (and lucky). If the count was a few thousand more, I probably would have mucked.

There is one player in the group that will fold his way to having a single T1000 chip when the blinds are 500-1000 and the 2 other players left have like 40k and 19k. I tried to explain to him that he has to beat both of us and if he does triple up, he's still a massive short stack. Three handed you're in a blind 2 of the 3 hands and has to shove again anyway by the time he's BB again. A 10-12x BB shove is 1/4 -1/3 my stack and will only call at that point with a good hand.

I never heard of a 20x BB shove. I'm more familiar with a 10x shove.

[NotFadeAway]

I totally forgot about this post.

So no one can offer any explanation for the 20X thumbrule, yet it's gospel for some....

I honestly don't know if it's 'gospel' for some.  It might be (and I certainly don't doubt that you've seen these people), but I don't know if I've seen anyone who thinks you HAVE to shove at 20BBs.  I think 10BBs is more of a 'gospel' number than 20, but I also see plenty of people who still limp in with K9s type hands at 6 or so BBs.

[Gregg729]

20 might be a tad high, for me it depends on how many players are still at the table and where are all the chips allocated? Does one or two players have all the chips? or are they spread around the table? I'm more of a 10-15 BB Shove myself, but if its still a full table then I will relax this and be more tempted to shove at 20 BB's. If the chips are spread around and there isn't many players that are dominating, I will be tempted to shove at 20 BB's. However, if there are a few players that have most of the chips and will call a 200k raise with 10/J os, then I might be tempted to drop my "shove" to the 10 x the BB rule.

Thanks for spelling this out.  I've been running pretty good all year up until recently - err, in 09 I mean - but this post made me realize that my shortstack game has eroded.  I've been sloppy and not looking at the entire situation as thorougly as I should be, thanks for the reminder.

my general feeling on shoving with 10-12 X the BB is I want my stack to be big enough that it still "hurts" if someone calls and loses....my experience with players that get to short usually get called by folks who might otherwise not call but called just because the stack was so small it wasn't a big deal to call

That's the bottom line for me when I get down to that range too.  If I fold this blind will I have enough chips left to give them a bloody nose if I double through them?

I honestly don't know if it's 'gospel' for some.  It might be (and I certainly don't doubt that you've seen these people), but I don't know if I've seen anyone who thinks you HAVE to shove at 20BBs.  I think 10BBs is more of a 'gospel' number than 20, but I also see plenty of people who still limp in with K9s type hands at 6 or so BBs.

Yeah, I definitely overstated the matter using the word gospel - "textbook thumbrule" would have been a better phrase to use.  I'd never really heard of the 20X thing until maybe this summer.  And then between the message boards of pocketfives.com and cardplayer.com and maybe this one to a lesser extent, it seemed like everyone was using that number in a shortstack discussion.  So I had to create this thread and ask about it - I was seeing that 20X number so frequently at that point, I was beginning to wonder if I was relying on obsolete logic or something. 

At any rate, it looks like everyone on this thread is more or less on the same page, good to know.  Thanks guys!

[Nerre]

Exactly when you should push doesn't only depend on how much chips you have left but also what cards you get and what position you have (and mostly some other factors too).

But the reasons you should go all in instead of do "ordinary betting" are easy to explain.

It's a matter of how much "pressure" you can put in the other players with your chips.

If you have 20 BB left and make an "ordinary" pre flop raise of say 5 BB and get two callers. The pot is 15 BB and you have 15 BB left. So you will only be able to make a pot size continuation bet on the flop and then you are all in. But what if you don't hit the flop? You really wanna go all in then? If you fold, you will only have 15 BB left and will have even less room for betting the following hands.

So, instead you wait for good cards and go all in with 20 BB. That bet is usually big enough to "buy the blinds" (so you shouldn't usually do it when you're in the blinds, because the gain is to small).

It's little like "a lot to gain, but nothing to lose".

Imagine you are on the other side. You are the chip leader with something liks 300 BB in front of you and sitting in the BB. One player goes all in with 10 BB. Would you really fold against a bet of 3% of your stack? Even if he has AA his chance to win is "only" 85% (AA against any hand).

[Blaster]

 I agree with most others that there are too many other factors at/near 20BB that come into play.
 I think, as a very general statement, that 20BB is too high to think you only have just the 1 move left of shove pre or fold.
 If most of the table is folding at that point to a 2.5-3xBB raise, there's no reason to shove with K/Q or A/9 suited, when a 3x will accomplish the same thing, and/or let you live to see more hands if you are re-raised.
 Probably approx 8-12 is the point of having only 1 move,  When doing a 3x represents 1/3 or so of your stack...
 Of course there's plenty of times it would be right to shove at 20BB ...
 I've heard pros refer to 10x as the absolute shove only point, never heard 20 .....

[Gregg729]

It sounds like everyone understood my unstated assumption, but just to be clear, I'm talking about shoving without any raises in front of you....

If you have 20 BB left and make an "ordinary" pre flop raise of say 5 BB and get two callers. The pot is 15 BB and you have 15 BB left. So you will only be able to make a pot size continuation bet on the flop and then you are all in. But what if you don't hit the flop? You really wanna go all in then? If you fold, you will only have 15 BB left and will have even less room for betting the following hands.

So, instead you wait for good cards and go all in with 20 BB. That bet is usually big enough to "buy the blinds" (so you shouldn't usually do it when you're in the blinds, because the gain is to small). 

Well that explains the rationale as good as I've heard it.  Not sure if I like it though.  If I miss on the flop, would I really wanna go all in then?  I think a better question is, at 20 BB's, why would I NOT want to see a flop first? 

Let me know if I'm wrong, but this is how I see it.  If you're down to 18-20 BB's, the table knows you're on a hair trigger for committing to any hand you play so people will be wary about calling a 4X or 5X raise of yours.  You're not likely to get 3 callers, IME.  And in general, you can assume any callers will have something legit to watch out for - any raisers, you know you should in general fold unless you have K's or A's, or maybe Q's if it's a LAG kinda guy bumping it up.  After seeing what the flop brings, you'll have a good idea if you're ahead or not so you can then shove or bail on your busted hand to live and fight another day.  Also, now have the option to bet for value if you happen to spike a set or broadway or something. 

I dunno, I just think you want to see one more flop at that stack level.  Be prepared to shove if the flop is favorable, and take your licks and move on if an ace comes out against your cowboys.  13-15 BB's is still plenty enough to drive out all nonpremium hands.

Imagine you are on the other side. You are the chip leader with something liks 300 BB in front of you and sitting in the BB. One player goes all in with 10 BB. Would you really fold against a bet of 3% of your stack? Even if he has AA his chance to win is "only" 85% (AA against any hand).

Obviously, that's a different matter entirely - that disparity pretty much only happens in cash games though, and I guess I should also clarify that I posed this question with tourneys in mind.

I never heard of a 20x BB shove. I'm more familiar with a 10x shove.

I've heard pros refer to 10x as the absolute shove only point, never heard 20 .....

Like I said, I never did either, earlier on.  But for a week or two prior to my starting this thread, I saw it a whole bunch.  I'm almost tempted to scour the internet to find out where all that stuff was coming from, though it would be a big hassle....  I have a strong feeling it was pocketfives - 20X just sounds like a thing the online-only, Derrr wannabe, aspiring pros would be coming from.

[FSL009]

i think M is a much more accurate way of working all this out, for the very reason of the 15BB case.

But M is also only any good if you then consider the zones that HOH indicated as well.

So M is a rotation of the tabe whcih means that Antes must be included in the calculation its the cost of each rotation.

if you have 20+ your comfortable and can play normally
15-20 you must loose small pairs is my understanding casue your going to put more of your stack at risk set mining...than is valid
10-15 similar strategy but you should look for high cards only and solid pairs
5-10 your now in shove mode for anything that is a decent hand frist to the pot
0-5 your now in shove mode for any hand first to the pot.

first to the pot is because you have fold equity and not making it % wise correct for a caller to come with you.

the problem is with BB you can not really get a feel for where your really at if Ante's are involved.  so try to use M as a better measure IMO.

m of 10 i start shoving most of my AK, AA-99 and AQs and some AJs in later positions.  as i drop below 8 I open this up abit and include KQs and Axs down to A5  after I hit m of 5 i am shoving any suited picture down to Q and so forth

Once I get to M of 3 (normally because of a beat that leaves me with soem extra) I pretty much will shove once a round preferably in late position but definately once a round to just maintain blinds hoping to get a good hand and at a time someone chooses to call me down.  but the blinds add so much to you that you just have to.

so to add to the origional question - i would think around the 20 BB with Antes in play would be a m under 10.  and that is why.

cheers

[troysteelerfan]

A few have made points as to reasons to shove preflop and when to - unless I have missed it another reason IMO to shove preflop when low is this....lets say you have 12-15X the BB and make a pretty straight forward preflop raise of 3X the BB but then miss your hand and have to fold maybe....by shoving preflop you also guarantee you will get to see all five cards if called.....another "added bonus" in my book

[Gregg729]

i think M is a much more accurate way of working all this out, for the very reason of the 15BB case.

But M is also only any good if you then consider the zones that HOH indicated as well.

So M is a rotation of the tabe whcih means that Antes must be included in the calculation its the cost of each rotation.

if you have 20+ your comfortable and can play normally
15-20 you must loose small pairs is my understanding casue your going to put more of your stack at risk set mining...than is valid
10-15 similar strategy but you should look for high cards only and solid pairs
5-10 your now in shove mode for anything that is a decent hand frist to the pot
0-5 your now in shove mode for any hand first to the pot.

first to the pot is because you have fold equity and not making it % wise correct for a caller to come with you.

the problem is with BB you can not really get a feel for where your really at if Ante's are involved.  so try to use M as a better measure IMO.

m of 10 i start shoving most of my AK, AA-99 and AQs and some AJs in later positions.  as i drop below 8 I open this up abit and include KQs and Axs down to A5  after I hit m of 5 i am shoving any suited picture down to Q and so forth

Once I get to M of 3 (normally because of a beat that leaves me with soem extra) I pretty much will shove once a round preferably in late position but definately once a round to just maintain blinds hoping to get a good hand and at a time someone chooses to call me down.  but the blinds add so much to you that you just have to.

so to add to the origional question - i would think around the 20 BB with Antes in play would be a m under 10.  and that is why.

cheers

Well that makes the most sense yet.  Which corresponds pretty well to what myself and probably most others are voicing.  I think in terms of M when antes are in play too, but that has been a very rare occasion for me.  Haven't played any online to speak of.  Mohegan and Foxwoods are the closest cardrooms with antes in play, and the few times I've made the trip in the past couple years I played cash games.  None of the home games or local cardrooms I go to use antes, thus my tendency to speak in terms of BB's instead of M.

And M without antes is always 2/3 of however many BB's you have.  So my loose rule of 10-12 BB's is 6.5-8 M.  So Harrington says I should be less reluctant to let it rip at 15 BB's, and I'm cool with that advice.

So let me ask a question and then bring up a certain situation.

First, is there any loose thumbrule on antes - as in, they are usually __ to __ % of the BB?

I also wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on a particular game.  It's a T3000 game with one T2000 rebuy permitted.  Blinds start at 50/100, no antes, so you're only beginning with 30 BB's.  So with a relatively short starting stack to begin the game, does that change anyone's shoving range?

[holdemholmes]

I also wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on a particular game.  It's a T3000 game with one T2000 rebuy permitted.  Blinds start at 50/100, no antes, so you're only beginning with 30 BB's.  So with a relatively short starting stack to begin the game, does that change anyone's shoving range?

It wouldn't affect my shoving range....I would still stick to starting to shove at 10bb. I think 20BB is far to much to have to start pushing with..unless maybe there is a raise in front of you.

[FSL009]

I also wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on a particular game.  It's a T3000 game with one T2000 rebuy permitted.  Blinds start at 50/100, no antes, so you're only beginning with 30 BB's.  So with a relatively short starting stack to begin the game, does that change anyone's shoving range?

I play the odd pub league, less so know than previously most here in Aus start you with 2500 or 3000 and a 25/50 BB count but move every 15 mins (or without a dealer every 4-5 hands)

so it is a fast tourney, I tend to keep my rules for the 5-20 M range.  but once I drop to the red zone i over play it, still shoving but only on the better hands until i drop to 3 the reason is mostly the average chip stack is not far from 5m anyway...so your sort of playing who can shove with the best hand a bit more than when in a real tourney and people have 30m stacks to your 5m so that is about the only change up that I make, it is no more successful if your this far gone your going to need luck at somepoint anyway.

[Nerre]

I think a better question is, at 20 BB's, why would I NOT want to see a flop first? 

Well, of course you ALWAYS want to see the flop. But at what price? That's what matters. If you just call the BB, you always have the chance that some player behind you raises, and what do you do then? Call or fold? If you would call that raise, why not push before insteead? And if you would fold to that raise, why did you waste a call?


As I wrote, I'm not saying the limit it set fixed to 20 BB, what I am saying is that sooner or later you will have to push pre flop because your stack is to short for "normal play".

[Gregg729]

I think a better question is, at 20 BB's, why would I NOT want to see a flop first? 

Well, of course you ALWAYS want to see the flop. But at what price? That's what matters. If you just call the BB, you always have the chance that some player behind you raises, and what do you do then? Call or fold? If you would call that raise, why not push before insteead? And if you would fold to that raise, why did you waste a call?


As I wrote, I'm not saying the limit it set fixed to 20 BB, what I am saying is that sooner or later you will have to push pre flop because your stack is to short for "normal play".

The price that this thread was started about was 20 BB's....   

[Nerre]

Well, I almost never pay 20 BB to see the flop:-)

If I go all in with 20 BB it's not to see the flop, it's to either make the other players fold or in any case get all the way to the river without having to be more.

If you pay 20 BB to see the flop, what do you do if you don't hit? :-)

[Gregg729]

lol

That's cool man.  I think we're pretty much splitting hairs at this point.

[bigstu]

Well this post explains Florida where everyone goes all in.  Esp on the 5 10 NL tables with a $5 ante.....Don't forget the max $100 buyins here.     It's changing July 1