New blind level

[FSL009]

Start of a new blind level - blinds are 100/200

Starting stacks were 2000 

Blinds up every 15 minutes

We were 8 handed , reasonably tight table i think we had lost two people since the start.  this level was the fourth level.

A. UTG - aggressive, played position alot, had a medium range of opening hands
B - tight, calling station, folded alot of opening hands
C - goodish player, limped alot, but with playable hands
D - worry - aggressive with decent opening hands
E - short stack nearly out, was unwilling to play medium hands
F - limper and folder
SB - limper and folder

BB had about 3500 in front of me and was the slight chip leader at the table at that stage.

BB To this stage had played only about 8 hands 6 of which never made it to the river, the two others were QQ, and AKs.

BB has 9h 8h

Four callers. SB folds

BB - Do you call, raise or fold?

I guess what I am asking is whether this a good spot to attempt a steal

(Click to show/hide)

 BB raised to 800 and everyone folded, one of the guys wanted to play and it took him some time to let it go, was asking BB questions like, do you want me to call, to which BB responded "I dont care, do what you think is the right play"  but he eventually let the hand go

[Martini]

Suited connectors are hands that you want to see multiway which is what you already have with that many limpers. I would just check and try to flop something good.

If you intention is to purely to try to steal the blinds and not even see a flop, why not steal with a crappy hand instead of wasting a decent one? I especially don't like that situation for a steal. There is already 5.5 BB (T1100 chips) in the pot before a steal attempt. How much would you raise? Even if you make it a rather steep 5xBB to go, the last person to fold would only have to call 400 into a pot of T2100 and is getting great pot odds no matter what their cards are. Yes there is more money in a multiway limped pot but it is going to be harder to get everyone out. Besides what if you get limp/raised by a big pair trapping UTG? Or what if a short stack decides that "there's just too much money out there" and decides to shove their stack of T1000? Then you'd be in a situation where you'd have to call off another T500 with Nine high.

[Gobbs]

I agree with everything Martini said.

Gobbs

[pathand]

I agree with everything Gobbs agreed with.                         

[Ghaleon]

Why try to steal against 4 limpers?  It's unlikely it will be successful and your hand really isn't strong enough to see a flop against someone who will actually call your raise.

Just check and hope to hit a hand.

If you're the chip leader with a stack of 17 times the big blind and you've been playing less than an hour, then there is something inherently wrong with the tournament structure to begin with.

Even with the chip lead, your stack is too short to start getting cute with a hand like 9/8.

[NotFadeAway]

I agree with everything Gobbs agreed with.                         

I agree with everything Pat agreed with that Gobbs agreed with that Martini said.

[FSL009]

This tourney structure is bad. 

It is designed to be over really quick, so the blinds are accelerated.  Sucks for my style of sit and wait. I am not a great stealer and bluffer anyway, but have just started reading HOH11 so can see that will improve my steals and bluffs by being a bit smarter about when and how.

I would not normally steal it in that position, but had noticed everyone folding to me regularly, so I got cute and lucky I think. 

I sort of agree with you all.  Although, I didnt like the hand at all.  Just was trying to use my tight image with all that money in the middle.

[Martini]

Is this the same structure as your other questions? Would you mind posting the blinds structure for us? It will help those who are giving advice on your play.

[FSL009]

No I played two tourneys that day so one was the pub tourney that is a accelerated blind structure, that is the steal question we are in.

The other two are in a casino tourney that had half hour blinds that raise more like a normal tourney you can find the casino one at www.burswoodpoker.com.au look at saphire tourney on 15th blinds are posted there (although they may have got rid of it now), They dont do antes but they raise 25/50, 50/100, 75/150 100/200, 150/300, 200/400, 250/500, 300/600 etc every half hour (From memory).

This steal post is a 15 minute blind period 25/50, 50/100, 75/150, 100/200, break, 200/400, 400/800, 500/1000, 1000/2000, 2000/4000, 3000/6000 (I know this one better)

In this one there was 56 players $20 each buy in (exclusive of the $5 fees)

By the time you hit the break you are down to about 2/3 of the starters, and you normally hit the final ten around the 1K/2K although this happened at 2K/4K on Sunday.

At the time I went out (12th) there was an average stack of 9,333.   My stack was 7K and I was third biggest stack at that table.  I dont know what the other table had, but I would imagine they were in a similar situation. It was the end of the 1//2K level.

At the time of the steal there was about 28-30 left.

Hope that helps.

 

 

[Dr. Neau]

This steal post is a 15 minute blind period 25/50, 50/100, 75/150, 100/200, break, 200/400, 400/800, 500/1000, 1000/2000, 2000/4000, 3000/6000 (I know this one better)

Can someone volunteer to fill the position of "Crappy Bet Progression Cop" for the remainder of 2008?  I'm too busy.

But since the role isn't filled, I'll pull this one over and give it a ticket.

200/400->400/800->500/1000->1000/2000???

100% increase and then a 25% increase, followed by another 100% increase??

We're goin' downtown.

[FSL009]

I agree, but this one is a $25 buy in luckfest that is on at least three times a week with 50+ players so what can I do but keep attending. 

I have made more than I have spent as I can at least survive until late in the tourney, and then it is a case of getting lucky.

[Gobbs]

I read pub poker and stopped reading.

Gobbs

[FSL009]

You guys are so funny re pub poker.

The fact is the APL who run this has something like 2 million+ members, given Aus's population in total is only around 20m that is highly impressive.  They operate in every state in Australia and are the largest of the poker business in Australia.

Their tournaments are well run and create local pubs getting business they never use to get.

They may have a crappy blind progression, but they have market power and are here to stay.

[hockeygoon]

The last player to fold was a donkey.  With those pot odds, anything he could have limped with he should have called another 600 with.

If that was an attempted steal, it wasn't nearly enough.  That's a raise I'd make with AA or AK, or KK to get more money in the pot and maybe chase one limper.

[Ghaleon]

You guys are so funny re pub poker.

The fact is the APL who run this has something like 2 million+ members, given Aus's population in total is only around 20m that is highly impressive.  They operate in every state in Australia and are the largest of the poker business in Australia.

Their tournaments are well run and create local pubs getting business they never use to get.

They may have a crappy blind progression, but they have market power and are here to stay.

I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I think that the point that Gobbs is trying to make is that there is a very distinct difference between pub poker and casino poker.

There is nothing definitively wrong with pub poker, just that you need to go into it with the correct expectation.

DON'T expect clear, consistent, knowledge and enforcement of the rules
DON'T expect competitive, challenging, respectful play
DON'T expect your study and research of the game to be very useful
DO expect a high rake
DO expect to get called with any two broadway cards and lose
DO expect the blinds structure to completely obliterate any chance you had at actually "playing poker"

The kind of poker that you play for profit or to improve your game is not held in Pubs.  If you're paying attention to the game in a way that leads you to start posting hand analyses on here, then you're playing in the wrong arena.

You play pub poker for the friends, the drinks, the comraderie, etc.  Most people play it that way.  They view it as "gambling".  What's the big deal losing $50 if I still get to hang out with friends, play a game, and drink?

If you're going to a pub game with a "strategy", you're going to the wrong place.

[FSL009]

I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I think that the point that Gobbs is trying to make is that there is a very distinct difference between pub poker and casino poker.

There is nothing definitively wrong with pub poker, just that you need to go into it with the correct expectation.

DON'T expect clear, consistent, knowledge and enforcement of the rules
DON'T expect competitive, challenging, respectful play
DON'T expect your study and research of the game to be very useful
DO expect a high rake
DO expect to get called with any two broadway cards and lose
DO expect the blinds structure to completely obliterate any chance you had at actually "playing poker"

The kind of poker that you play for profit or to improve your game is not held in Pubs.  If you're paying attention to the game in a way that leads you to start posting hand analyses on here, then you're playing in the wrong arena.

You play pub poker for the friends, the drinks, the comraderie, etc.  Most people play it that way.  They view it as "gambling".  What's the big deal losing $50 if I still get to hang out with friends, play a game, and drink?

If you're going to a pub game with a "strategy", you're going to the wrong place.

I dont disagree with you.  But limited options means you take what you get really.

The only additional comment that i woudl say is your analysis does not take into account a city of 1 million people and one casino.  What I mean is the guys that play at the APL here are the same guys that play at the casino on the most part.

the apl is a tourney and fees $5 from $25 the casino takes $15 from $125 

the rake at the APL cash tables is higher than the casino, but only slightly, and for that reason I only play their tournaments.

The casino structures here are pretty poor in my opinion as well, but that is what I have to live with at the moment.  I loved the structures in Vegas which make so much more sense, but those sort of tourneys do not exist in Perth Western Australia either at our casino or our pub league.  for instance, no one here does tournaments with Antes  except for my home tourney, which no one wants to play anymore as most of my friends are only interested if there is a str...entertainer along for the ride.

But my issue is more, well I have to get on with it and play that game as they are the regular games available.  the Casino here holds one tourney a month.  so cash games i can get at the Cas, but live tourneys i am stuck really. Other than internet poker which to be honest is no better in the style you get from the other players anyway, at least not at the level my bankroll would allow at the moment.

So I agree that I would love to rely on a casino for better structures, but ours doesnt and I dont have 25 casinos on the one street here to fulfill on all levels of tourneys. 

But thanks for the comments anyway. 

Oh and i think you under estimate the talent of poker player at the APL league, some are very good, there are donkeys, but there are at the WSOP main event as well.

[Gobbs]

You guys are so funny re pub poker.

The fact is the APL who run this has something like 2 million+ members, given Aus's population in total is only around 20m that is highly impressive.  They operate in every state in Australia and are the largest of the poker business in Australia.

Their tournaments are well run and create local pubs getting business they never use to get.

They may have a crappy blind progression, but they have market power and are here to stay.

I don't want to put words in anybody's mouth, but I think that the point that Gobbs is trying to make is that there is a very distinct difference between pub poker and casino poker.

There is nothing definitively wrong with pub poker, just that you need to go into it with the correct expectation.

DON'T expect clear, consistent, knowledge and enforcement of the rules
DON'T expect competitive, challenging, respectful play
DON'T expect your study and research of the game to be very useful
DO expect a high rake
DO expect to get called with any two broadway cards and lose
DO expect the blinds structure to completely obliterate any chance you had at actually "playing poker"

The kind of poker that you play for profit or to improve your game is not held in Pubs.  If you're paying attention to the game in a way that leads you to start posting hand analyses on here, then you're playing in the wrong arena.

You play pub poker for the friends, the drinks, the comraderie, etc.  Most people play it that way.  They view it as "gambling".  What's the big deal losing $50 if I still get to hang out with friends, play a game, and drink?

If you're going to a pub game with a "strategy", you're going to the wrong place.

That's a fair representation of my feelings towards pub poker.  We have it in GA and it stinks....and there are zero casinos in a city of over 5 million.

You don't have homes in Australia?  If so, maybe you should try a home poker tournament as an option.......

Gobbs

[NotFadeAway]

I actually like the bar poker here in Georgia (I play the Full House Hold 'em tourneys at times), but it's certainly not due to the poker itself.  I like hanging out with friends and having fun, although I do take the playing very seriously.  However, after an hour or so you're not really playing poker anymore.  It's just two card hold 'em with preflop all ins all over the place.  And to make matters worse, there are always terrible calling stations with huge stacks (the 'champion of the donkeys') making it impossible to play anything resembling poker.  I really wish we could have casinos here, but the backward/stupid/corrupt politicians (or people, at least for the first two) will almost certainly keep that from ever happening.

[FSL009]

You don't have homes in Australia?  If so, maybe you should try a home poker tournament as an option.......

lol.  yeah we all live in houses. Same as you lot...lol


Yes i have a home about every 6 months, not regular enough though.  the fact is that I have more than enough on in my life without having a regular home tourney.

We play freerolls with family all the time, but that is worse than pub poker and i would rarely invite friends around.

and i quote myself: 

for instance, no one here does tournaments with Antes  except for my home tourney, which no one wants to play anymore as most of my friends are only interested if there is a str...entertainer along for the ride.

Given a wife and two young kids i can only kick them out of my house every so often.  Most of my friends are not that into it.  So that leaves the internet and the casino and the APl.

there is another league here called the WAPL which I have not played at but their structure appears to be no better, more costly and i would imagine the same as the APL crowd anyway.

But thanks for the thoughts.  I think the internet has it at this stage, but all their tournaments are set up for US and Europe time so the better ones start at 3am-6am in the morning here...when I am pushing out zzzzz's

[Gobbs]

You don't have homes in Australia?  If so, maybe you should try a home poker tournament as an option.......

lol.  yeah we all live in houses. Same as you lot...lol


Yes i have a home about every 6 months, not regular enough though.  the fact is that I have more than enough on in my life without having a regular home tourney.

We play freerolls with family all the time, but that is worse than pub poker and i would rarely invite friends around.

and i quote myself: 

for instance, no one here does tournaments with Antes  except for my home tourney, which no one wants to play anymore as most of my friends are only interested if there is a str...entertainer along for the ride.

Given a wife and two young kids i can only kick them out of my house every so often.  Most of my friends are not that into it.  So that leaves the internet and the casino and the APl.

there is another league here called the WAPL which I have not played at but their structure appears to be no better, more costly and i would imagine the same as the APL crowd anyway.

But thanks for the thoughts.  I think the internet has it at this stage, but all their tournaments are set up for US and Europe time so the better ones start at 3am-6am in the morning here...when I am pushing out zzzzz's

I really feel sorry for you (not being sarcastic).  It's terrible that there is not a bunch of homegames to go to.  I have a ton of choices here.

Gobbs

[FSL009]

I really feel sorry for you (not being sarcastic).  It's terrible that there is not a bunch of homegames to go to.  I have a ton of choices here.

Gobbs

there are probably heaps around that i dont know about.  If I went to pub poker more often I would probably get a chance to attend more of those, but you know where that is going right...lol

Home games run by pub poker participants...i am sure that would be high on your agenda of must attends...lol.

[Gobbs]

I really feel sorry for you (not being sarcastic).  It's terrible that there is not a bunch of homegames to go to.  I have a ton of choices here.

Gobbs

there are probably heaps around that i dont know about.  If I went to pub poker more often I would probably get a chance to attend more of those, but you know where that is going right...lol

Home games run by pub poker participants...i am sure that would be high on your agenda of must attends...lol.

Good point, but I'm sure there are home games around that are worth going to....how to find them, that's another story and something to which I do not have an answer.

Gobbs

[R-Ho]

Well, if you made overtures at pub poker you might get clued in.  Then, if you go to someone's game, and it's not run well, you can always leave early if its a cash game, and/or not return if its a tourney.

R-Ho