Hand from yesterday

[FSL009]

10 handed end of second blind period of a tourney

Starting stacks are 2000

You have 3300 after posting the BB of 100

2 callers

then one of the button raises 350 (to 450 all up)

You look at your hand and see KK what do you do?


Part two

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  You actually bet out 1500 two callers fold and OOB goes all in he has you covered. What do you do?

Part three

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You actually call, he has AA.  and you dont improve and your out.  Doh....damn....and double Doh.

[Ghaleon]

I haven't read either spoiler.

I'm in the BB, acting after 2 limpers and a raise to 350.  I'm raising to about 700-800.  That should force the limpers to fold just about anything except for AA or KK, and still give the original raiser good enough odds to hang with you and see a flop.

I'm putting the raiser on a pretty big range here.  Any two broadway, any pair, suited connectors 7/8+.  I have so much of that range crushed right now I don't really mind letting him see a flop at 3 to 1 odds.

[NotFadeAway]

I'd probably raise to around 1400 or so.  This raise is huge, but you're out of position and this way you'll have almost half your stack in and be in good position to get this in preflop if the raiser has AA-JJ, AK, and (I imagine with many players) even worse than that.  If everyone folds, that's fine, as it's a tournament, you're out of position, and the pot's a decent size already (of course, I'd rather get action, but if not that's fine.)

[Martini]

By virtue of the hand being posted it is fairly predictable what the hole cards end up being. I looked at the spoilers anyway but it was no surprise.

First of all if you were the BB at 100 in the second round of blinds and T2000 starting stacks then you are going to get pot committed to a hand fairly quickly so don't expect to be able to fold premium hands. If you run into a cooler so be it.

As for the raise to 450, that seems like an isolation "don't crack my big pair" overbet more than a value raise.

If you really think you could fold KK in that situation then you should have only min raised him back to open the door for him to shove and you to fold. However folding KK in a spot like that is almost certainly wrong unless you have played with this person enough to peg him on *exactly* AA with a third raise but that would be rather unlikely.

[Ghaleon]

How much does the BB have left in his stack after he put in the 350?

[Detroitdad]

push

now I will check the spoilers

just checked the first spoiler..............call

just checked the 2nd spoiler..............Sh!t Happens

[Ghaleon]

I agree with Martini.  You're just going to have to payoff aces here.  Whenever you have KK at a full table, there is always a 4% (approx) chance that someone else at the table has Aces.  It's just so improbable that you can't really consider it in any of your decision making.

And I can see NFA's point about 1400.  You're happy to get action from a weaker hand, though it becomes less likely that you will.  But in a tournament, stealing a pot that increases your chip stack by over 20% is nothing to sneeze at.

However, I can also see the hand played with a smaller re-raise.  Something like 750 or 800 sounds good to me.  You're sure to still get action from most of the villain's range.  After that raise, I'll have T2500 left in a game with a blind of T100 (which is about to go up).  I'm shoving almost any flop so my whole stack is going in anyway.

So if we know we're committing our whole stack almost 100% of the time, I think we should make the play that encourages the most pre-flop action from our opponent.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

I was thinking to raise to around 1200.  This way you expect the CO to call you and have it get HU.  Then he may well feel pot committed on the flop with any reasonable PP or top pair or something.

(Click to show/hide)

Okay, so this raise from the CO looks a ton like aces, but unless you actually see his cards, I really don't see that you can fold here.  I assume you haven't had thousands of hands vs. this guy or something, so you can't be sure that he has aces, you are pot committed with these stacks, and you simply must call.  If you're beat, then you are.

[Crimson]

I just did this on Friday night. First round of tourney, 10/20 binds. My stack is close to the 2000 start, maybe a little more. Villain is on the button and I'm right before her. Table is 9 handed. I have KK and I 3xBB raise it to 60 because there were only like 2 limpers and I wanted to build the pot up a bit. Villain reraises to 120. Folds all around to me. I know this player is tight and my gut told me she had AA. She is actually too tight of a player. You know the kind who doesn't play many hands and doesn't really play them aggressively and usually ends up at the final table with a short stack and gets blinded to death?

So, I could have done the smart thing here, fold, throw my kings face up on the table and tell her I know she has Aces, but instead I call and hope for a set. Against most other players there, who I know would reraise with more hands than just Aces, I would have reraised big, like 400 and made them really commit to their hand or just fold. But, like I said, I knew she had Aces and I was at this point hoping to suck out a set and I didn't want to reraise and commit more of my chips to the pot than I already had to. Then, I continue to be a complete moron and check-call her all the way to the river, neither one of us hitting anything, and say "ok, show me your aces". She does, I throw my Kings down and say "I knew it". Inside, I had been hoping she had the other two Kings, I hit a set, or she actually has AK or QQ. Should have trusted my read.

But, I only lost like like 400 to her, and learned a valuable lesson.

[FSL009]

Re some of the questions:

His stack was well above mine, at a guess maybe 9K  he was close to chip leader I would have thought.

I have never played him and he had been at the table for maybe three or four hands, none of which I had played.

Lastly, I can never fold KK there are only 12 combinations of Aces out of 2600+ card combinations it is so unlikely that he had AA it wasn't funny.  I had to double up on that hand or die.  So I did what I had to do, just the other result would have been more liked.

I would never fold KK in that situation, I just cant.  Crimsons situation is a little easier, although I have never played someone so tight that you couldnt hope for QQ, JJ 10 10, or AK AQ combinations.

Up to my opponents all in I would have said his range was probably 9s and above, and maybe a few suited high end connectors.

at the all in, he could have been trying to resteal, although I am that tight player that comes to final tables with too little a chip stack. In this tourney that would have been fine as there were 10 seats for a bigger two day tourney in a few weeks.

Cheers for the replies.

[Martini]

How many players did you start with? You said he had 9000-ish and was close to the chip leader which implies that someone else had roughly the same amount if not more. If the starting stack was T2000 and you three players had about ten times that much just among you, there couldn't have been ten players in the hand if you started ten handed. Or if you started with two tables of ten then that would make those stacks possible but would mean half the field being eliminated in the first two rounds of blinds?

[Gobbs]

With this structure for a tournament, you have two moves, fold or all-in.  Since you'd be a moron to fold pocket kings, I guess that means all-in.  This format is just way to aggressive to allow for anything other than those two decisions.

Gobbs

[Ghaleon]

Re some of the questions:

His stack was well above mine, at a guess maybe 9K  he was close to chip leader I would have thought.  If that's the case, just shove.  IF he has that many chips this early in a T2000 tournament, he really isn't scared of losing 1/3 of his stack to you.  You will probbaly still get called by AK, AQ, KQsuited, 88+ etc.

I have never played him and he had been at the table for maybe three or four hands, none of which I had played.  You still can't give him credit for a hand better than Kings.

Lastly, I can never fold KK there are only 12 combinations of Aces out of 2600+ card combinations it is so unlikely that he had AA it wasn't funny.  I had to double up on that hand or die.  So I did what I had to do, just the other result would have been more liked.  Check your math, it's actually 6 combinations out of 1326 possible hands.   (52 x 51) /2 = 1326

I would never fold KK in that situation, I just cant.  Crimsons situation is a little easier, although I have never played someone so tight that you couldnt hope for QQ, JJ 10 10, or AK AQ combinations. Me either, you can't worry about Aces when you have Kings.

Up to my opponents all in I would have said his range was probably 9s and above, and maybe a few suited high end connectors. No, given his stack size, I would say that this is STILL his range.

at the all in, he could have been trying to resteal, although I am that tight player that comes to final tables with too little a chip stack. In this tourney that would have been fine as there were 10 seats for a bigger two day tourney in a few weeks.  Wait, so this is a satellite tournament that awards 10-seats to the bigger game?  But didn't you say that you were down to 10 people already?  If that's the case then I'm shoving any two cards here.  ANY TWO CARDS.

Cheers for the replies.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

Wait, so this is a satellite tournament that awards 10-seats to the bigger game?  But didn't you say that you were down to 10 people already?  If that's the case then I'm shoving any two cards here.  ANY TWO CARDS.[/color]

I think he meant that the table that he was at was ten handed, not that they were already down to ten players (it's only the second blind level, after all).  I don't want to put words in his mouth, but that's my assumption here.

[FSL009]

Sorry, miss communication.

I was out around 71 of 100 so on my table it was 10 handed but there was still another 8 or so tables of people left.

It was the second blind level of a 100 person sattelite to a bigger 2 day tourney.  Early days.

Hope that is clearer. 

[FSL009]

Ghalean is correct should divide by 2 for the fact you dont care about what order they come in. 

Same percentage though 6 over 1326, or 12 over 2652.

6/1326 =0.004

12 = 0.004

So I was just trying to make the point that it is pretty rare that you get AA v KK.  Which we all know.

I am not getting away from KK regardless of what formula I go with...lol. 

Just to be clear this is a 100 person sattelite and I was along way from the prize.  a long way.  they had collapsed two tables of the ten they started with I believe.

[Ghaleon]

I'm open shoving KK in that kind of tournament.

I'm open shoving alot actually.

What's the buy-in?

[FSL009]

$125 - less a $15 fee.  (the buy in for the next tourney is $1100 (including the $100 fee)

Cheers

[Martini]

$125 - less a $15 fee.  (the buy in for the next tourney is $1100 (including the $100 fee)

Cheers

$140 for a crapshoot of a tourney? Are we talking $US?

[FSL009]

Na Aussie, but given the difference is around 5c now you could equate it to $1 US anyway.

Cheers

[FSL009]

And its $125 inclusive of the $15 fee so $110 tourney.