1c/2c AK 4-bet, nut flush draw flop push - line check

[luckystraights]

Hya, just looking for some thoughts on the line I took here, specifically my flop push. Do I have enough fold equity against an unknown for this push?

I don't usually 4 bet with an AK, but I'm trying to up my aggression and step my game up to a higher level. Could I be adding things that are more appropriate for 10 or 25NL?

Thanks

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2753889

[Detroitdad]

I don't really need to read any further than 1c/2c. After that everything pretty much falls flat. Unless you play tight/tight/aggressive then it doesn't really matter what you do. Your opponent could easily be playing 2/7 suited and doesn't care about his buck.

B

[luckystraights]

I don't really need to read any further than 1c/2c. After that everything pretty much falls flat. Unless you play tight/tight/aggressive then it doesn't really matter what you do. Your opponent could easily be playing 2/7 suited and doesn't care about his buck.

B

I think people here tend to underestimate the $5NL cash crowd, $1 sit 'n go's I'm with you all the way, but I've only met one total retard in 20k+ hands since I've been grinding $5NL.

[NotFadeAway]

Looks well played.

[Ghaleon]

I'll reiterate DetroitDad, 1c/2c takes an entirely different kind of play.  There are ways to deal with one super-loose opponent, but it's hard to make money when there are 7-8 players at the table who will call with any two because the money is so insignificant.

Anyway, I really hate the raise to $2.50 pre-flop.  You already raised, and defined yourself as having a strong hand.  The other player re-raised indicating further strength.  Right now, all you have is Ace high, so there is no reason to start throwing more money in the pot.  Just call and see the flop.

By raising pre-flop you left the villain in a situation where he has about half the pot left in his stack after the flop.  That means that even if you shove, he is going to get 3 to 1 on his money.  That means he can call with just about anything after the flop.  A flush draw, OESD, middle pair, or even just two over cards are all getting pretty close to the right price to call.

Had you just called his raise to $.50, there would only have been about $1 in the pot, and you would have each had about $4.50 to play with.  It would be much easier then to make a bet that forces him to make a mistake to beat you.

With that flop, you already have nine outs to make the absolute nuts.  You have 6 outs to make top pair, and a longshot straight possibility.  While you may not have the best hand right now, you're certainly strong enough to play this round of betting and see another card.

This is a classic case of 'overplaying' a hand.

[luckystraights]

Looks well played.

Thanks, I've just ran Poker Stove, and even with one of my flush outs gone its almost an exact coin flip, I'll run a simulation on how I fair against aces or kings.

I'm 43 / 56% against kings and 37 / 63% against aces.

[luckystraights]

@ Ghaleon,

Thats my usual line with AK, the 4-bet is likely more appropriate for 25NL or higher. I think I'll keep as part of my overall strategy but use it sparingly.

In a cash game should I not welcome mid pair or a flush draw calling in this spot where I'm 50% or more to win the hand?

[Detroitdad]

I don't really need to read any further than 1c/2c. After that everything pretty much falls flat. Unless you play tight/tight/aggressive then it doesn't really matter what you do. Your opponent could easily be playing 2/7 suited and doesn't care about his buck.

B

I think people here tend to underestimate the $5NL cash crowd, $1 sit 'n go's I'm with you all the way, but I've only met one total retard in 20k+ hands since I've been grinding $5NL.

I played it, I know. I underestimate it for a reason, because its not poker!!!!!!!!!

[Ghaleon]

@ Ghaleon,

Thats my usual line with AK, the 4-bet is likely more appropriate for 25NL or higher. I think I'll keep as part of my overall strategy but use it sparingly.

In a cash game should I not welcome mid pair or a flush draw calling in this spot where I'm 50% or more to win the hand?

To your second comment above: yes you should welcome those hands calling you down.  However, only in this EXACT scenario.  You did not know you would have the nut flush draw when you made the $2 raise.  What if that same flop hit but it was all different suits.  You would be WAY behind in a big pot that you created with just Ace High.  And at that point you wouldn't have enough chips left to bluff your opponent out of the pot, so you absolutely must connect with the flop.  And you're only going to hit TPTK about 1/3 of the time.  So you're just going to be check/folding 66% of the time.

Also, your calculation of 50% or more to win isnt' always going to be the case even on the suited flop.  Your opponent could have TT, or 88, in which case you must flush out to win.

[luckystraights]

@ Ghaleon,

Thats my usual line with AK, the 4-bet is likely more appropriate for 25NL or higher. I think I'll keep as part of my overall strategy but use it sparingly.

In a cash game should I not welcome mid pair or a flush draw calling in this spot where I'm 50% or more to win the hand?

To your second comment above: yes you should welcome those hands calling you down.  However, only in this EXACT scenario.  You did not know you would have the nut flush draw when you made the $2 raise.  What if that same flop hit but it was all different suits.  You would be WAY behind in a big pot that you created with just Ace High.  And at that point you wouldn't have enough chips left to bluff your opponent out of the pot, so you absolutely must connect with the flop.  And you're only going to hit TPTK about 1/3 of the time.  So you're just going to be check/folding 66% of the time.

Also, your calculation of 50% or more to win isnt' always going to be the case even on the suited flop.  Your opponent could have TT, or 88, in which case you must flush out to win.

Granted, my AK here was essentially aces to me, so I'll likely be pushing even on a rainbow flop given the pre-flop action. The play would have worked better against a regular, whose never seen me 4-bet without kings or aces, so it was likely badly timed to take such an aggressive line against an unknown.

[NotFadeAway]

I disagree here, for a few reasons.
1.  AK is a strong hand.  It rates to be best or slightly down against a pair (possibly a small pair), so the preflop raise is for value.
2.  Check-fold?  I mean...WHAT?  Pot is $5 and lucky has less than $3 behind.  No way lucky doesn't continue bet this flop almost no matter what (rightly so obviously.)
3.  You don't automatically need to 'bluff' your opponent out when you miss the flop.  AK high is often going to be the best hand after the flop.  At a 5NL table (which I used to play), or in many tournaments or higher games for that matter, you might well get called by KQ, AQ, AJ, etc.  You might also get called by sevens, nines, threes, etc. that cannot possibly call your c-bet (by the way, continuation bets are not really bluffs; it is a different play.)
4.  Even if you're against jacks or queens (which you're probably not, seeing as how it wasn't raised preflop), you're better off seeing all five cards.  Once you've put this much in preflop, you badly must see five cards, since folding will forfeit much equity in the hand that is gained from seeing all cards.

Lucky played it pretty standard, and certainly well.  Good job, even if you lost the pot.

[Ghaleon]

It's not so much the timing of the aggression, or the whether or not your opponent had seen you make this play before, it's simply the math.

You're putting in half your stack pre-flop with ace high.  You've created a situation where you can't possibly fold regardless of what falls on the flop.  And the vast majority of the time, you're going to miss the flop.

It doesn't make any sense to put yourself in a position where you are pot committed with nothing.  if you both had $20 behind, the raise to $2.50 would be fine, because you've left yourself enough of a stack to push him off of the hand when if he misses.  Instead he's going to get 3 to 1 or better after the flop, and there is nothing he could have that would call the $2 bet and then fold at 3 to 1 on the flop.

There are only two reasons to raise.  1) For value on yoru good hands, and 2) To make your opponent fold.

Given the size of the starting stacks, that $2 bet is going to cost you your entire stack, most of the time.  So this is clearly not a raise for value.

And if you wanted to make your opponent fold, you should have raised all-in.  By betting less you allow him to possibly re-raise you putting you to somewhat of a decision.  You can't possibly make a bet thatis going to make him fold later so why not just put him to the test now.

[NotFadeAway]

AK raise to $2.50 is for value I'm sure.  AK can easily beat opponent's range I imagine, so I like lucky's play.  Aggression is far better than passivity, and calling and hoping to flop good is generally a losing strategy.  Also, at a $5 table villain is certain to call any 'standard' reraise, so a huge reraise can be a strong value play with a very strong hand (which the AK is.)

[Ghaleon]

How is it a value bet?  What is the opponents range here.  We raised to 5x, he raised to 25x.  If he calls out of position like that, he's got to be at least a little bit serious about playing the hand.

AA and KK have us crushed pre-flop.  Any other pair is also a slight favorite.  So over time, if we make this play that basically commits all of our chips, we are going to lose value agaisnt these hands.

Beyond that, what else is there?  Are we really going to see AQ, KQ, KJ often enough here to make this a profitable use of our entire stack?

By not making the raise, we leave ourselves in a position to take the pot away from our opponent when he misses.   if we had just called his raise, then we could have made a bet at the flop and probably picked up enough to show a nice profit.

[luckystraights]

How is it a value bet?  What is the opponents range here.  We raised to 5x, he raised to 25x.  If he calls out of position like that, he's got to be at least a little bit serious about playing the hand.

AA and KK have us crushed pre-flop.  Any other pair is also a slight favorite.  So over time, if we make this play that basically commits all of our chips, we are going to lose value agaisnt these hands.

Beyond that, what else is there?  Are we really going to see AQ, KQ, KJ often enough here to make this a profitable use of our entire stack?

By not making the raise, we leave ourselves in a position to take the pot away from our opponent when he misses.   if we had just called his raise, then we could have made a bet at the flop and probably picked up enough to show a nice profit.

I don't get it much at my stakes, but at higher games 22-AA can make this re-raise, my 4-bet was an image based play, although against the wrong opponent (unknown vs regular) which would likely get 22-TT to fold.

[Martini]

It's not so much the timing of the aggression, or the whether or not your opponent had seen you make this play before, it's simply the math.

You're putting in half your stack pre-flop with ace high.  You've created a situation where you can't possibly fold regardless of what falls on the flop.  And the vast majority of the time, you're going to miss the flop.

It doesn't make any sense to put yourself in a position where you are pot committed with nothing.  if you both had $20 behind, the raise to $2.50 would be fine, because you've left yourself enough of a stack to push him off of the hand when if he misses.  Instead he's going to get 3 to 1 or better after the flop, and there is nothing he could have that would call the $2 bet and then fold at 3 to 1 on the flop.

There are only two reasons to raise.  1) For value on yoru good hands, and 2) To make your opponent fold.

Given the size of the starting stacks, that $2 bet is going to cost you your entire stack, most of the time.  So this is clearly not a raise for value.

And if you wanted to make your opponent fold, you should have raised all-in.  By betting less you allow him to possibly re-raise you putting you to somewhat of a decision.  You can't possibly make a bet thatis going to make him fold later so why not just put him to the test now.

The vast majority of the time AK is going to miss the Flop? True. But Villain is going to miss the Flop just as often and typically with worse cards than AK. That's the point of the cbet. Sometimes the big raise pre-flop will be followed by an AK cbet. Sometimes it will be an overpair protecting against draws. It's up to Villain to figure out which one is which.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

I don't get the 'you're putting in half your stack pf with ace high' logic.  Anyone would rather be putting in half their stack pf with AKs than with most any pair, yes?  AKs clearly rates to be no worse than the fourth best pf hand to be putting your chips in with.  Remember that this IS a 1c/2c table and AKs is a total monster against what your opponents figure to be playing.  Why not get as many of your chips as you can in pf?  There is just no way that it's not +EV to do so.

[Detroitdad]

at these stakes most of these players don't even know what a "c-bet" is. Hell, they probably don't know what a flop is.

B

[TwoToGo-Grave]

at these stakes most of these players don't even know what a "c-bet" is. Hell, they probably don't know what a flop is.

B

Dang, from what I keep seeing, half the players you encounter at $.50/1 NLH tables don't know what a flop is.

[Detroitdad]

at these stakes most of these players don't even know what a "c-bet" is. Hell, they probably don't know what a flop is.

B

Dang, from what I keep seeing, half the players you encounter at $.50/1 NLH tables don't know what a flop is.

and that is why my online days are pretty much over with (haven't said that before )

[Ghaleon]

The vast majority of the time AK is going to miss the Flop? True. But Villain is going to miss the Flop just as often and typically with worse cards than AK. That's the point of the cbet. Sometimes the big raise pre-flop will be followed by an AK cbet. Sometimes it will be an overpair protecting against draws. It's up to Villain to figure out which one is which.

Yes AK misses the flop most of the time.  ANd Yes the villain does too.  So when you have AK and you do miss, wouldn't it be nice to have enough chips left to push the villain off whatever he has?

AK is a strong hand yes, but it's not 'fourth best'.  AK is an underdog (though slightly) to ALL of the pairs.  So it's really only 14th best.  And if the villain calls the $2, it is likely that most of his range is made up by the 13 hands that better than yours.  The villain is calling this huge bet, out of position.  We have to give him credit for a real hand.  So by making the bet, you've committed yourself to the pot, for your entire stack, with just Ace high.  AK is a strong hand, but it's an underdog to alot of other other hands htat the villain could likely have.  Committing yourself to the pot here has to be unprofitable.

The point is, you need more chips to make this play so that when your opponent misses, you can protect your hand.

[luckystraights]

The vast majority of the time AK is going to miss the Flop? True. But Villain is going to miss the Flop just as often and typically with worse cards than AK. That's the point of the cbet. Sometimes the big raise pre-flop will be followed by an AK cbet. Sometimes it will be an overpair protecting against draws. It's up to Villain to figure out which one is which.

Yes AK misses the flop most of the time.  ANd Yes the villain does too.  So when you have AK and you do miss, wouldn't it be nice to have enough chips left to push the villain off whatever he has?

AK is a strong hand yes, but it's not 'fourth best'.  AK is an underdog (though slightly) to ALL of the pairs.  So it's really only 14th best.  And if the villain calls the $2, it is likely that most of his range is made up by the 13 hands that better than yours.  The villain is calling this huge bet, out of position.  We have to give him credit for a real hand.  So by making the bet, you've committed yourself to the pot, for your entire stack, with just Ace high.  AK is a strong hand, but it's an underdog to alot of other other hands htat the villain could likely have.  Committing yourself to the pot here has to be unprofitable.

The point is, you need more chips to make this play so that when your opponent misses, you can protect your hand.

I think pushing someone off a hand with more behind maybe easier to do but is more of a mistake.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

AK is a strong hand yes, but it's not 'fourth best'.  AK is an underdog (though slightly) to ALL of the pairs.  So it's really only 14th best.  And if the villain calls the $2, it is likely that most of his range is made up by the 13 hands that better than yours.  The villain is calling this huge bet, out of position.  We have to give him credit for a real hand.  So by making the bet, you've committed yourself to the pot, for your entire stack, with just Ace high.  AK is a strong hand, but it's an underdog to alot of other other hands htat the villain could likely have.  Committing yourself to the pot here has to be unprofitable.

The point is, you need more chips to make this play so that when your opponent misses, you can protect your hand.

I'll take AK over a small pair (not hot and cold, of course) any day in a big pf pot vs. a 1/2c villain's range especially.  Why does he have to have monster hand here?  If you just call, you what, will turn your hand into a bluff?  If you both miss, you can steal it?  But if he needs a HAND to have called, you're not bluffing him off.  You don't make your money from bluffing, anyway, you tend to make it from putting in more chips with the best of it.
Oh, and if you're going to call his villain's three-bet pf, then you would have the overlay to race vs. any hand that's not aces or kings (and again, this is a 1/2c table, so they don't have to have a monster to be playing with you).  On the flop, you've got a strong price, also, against any hand but a set or aces, and you often will have the best hand here.

[Detroitdad]

I agree with you TTGG. The villains range at these stakes are any where from 7-2 os to pocket aces.

[luckystraights]

I agree with you TTGG. The villains range at these stakes are any where from 7-2 os to pocket aces.

I admit it, you where right, these guys are total donkey's. Just had AK high call a push in the same spot getting far worse odds then this.

[Martini]

The vast majority of the time AK is going to miss the Flop? True. But Villain is going to miss the Flop just as often and typically with worse cards than AK. That's the point of the cbet. Sometimes the big raise pre-flop will be followed by an AK cbet. Sometimes it will be an overpair protecting against draws. It's up to Villain to figure out which one is which.

Yes AK misses the flop most of the time.  ANd Yes the villain does too.  So when you have AK and you do miss, wouldn't it be nice to have enough chips left to push the villain off whatever he has?

AK is a strong hand yes, but it's not 'fourth best'.  AK is an underdog (though slightly) to ALL of the pairs.  So it's really only 14th best.  And if the villain calls the $2, it is likely that most of his range is made up by the 13 hands that better than yours.  The villain is calling this huge bet, out of position.  We have to give him credit for a real hand.  So by making the bet, you've committed yourself to the pot, for your entire stack, with just Ace high.  AK is a strong hand, but it's an underdog to alot of other other hands htat the villain could likely have.  Committing yourself to the pot here has to be unprofitable.

The point is, you need more chips to make this play so that when your opponent misses, you can protect your hand.

Why would I want to have Villain fold an inferior hand? You *want* Villain to get his money in when he is behind.

If you think that anyone calling a huge raise in a .01/.02 game automatically has one of the top 13 hands then I would venture that you haven't played much .01/.02 poker online. Even if they do have a hand better than AK like pocket 4s, do you really think they will automatically call when the flop comes out QJ7?

[Ghaleon]

The vast majority of the time AK is going to miss the Flop? True. But Villain is going to miss the Flop just as often and typically with worse cards than AK. That's the point of the cbet. Sometimes the big raise pre-flop will be followed by an AK cbet. Sometimes it will be an overpair protecting against draws. It's up to Villain to figure out which one is which.

Yes AK misses the flop most of the time.  ANd Yes the villain does too.  So when you have AK and you do miss, wouldn't it be nice to have enough chips left to push the villain off whatever he has?

AK is a strong hand yes, but it's not 'fourth best'.  AK is an underdog (though slightly) to ALL of the pairs.  So it's really only 14th best.  And if the villain calls the $2, it is likely that most of his range is made up by the 13 hands that better than yours.  The villain is calling this huge bet, out of position.  We have to give him credit for a real hand.  So by making the bet, you've committed yourself to the pot, for your entire stack, with just Ace high.  AK is a strong hand, but it's an underdog to alot of other other hands htat the villain could likely have.  Committing yourself to the pot here has to be unprofitable.

The point is, you need more chips to make this play so that when your opponent misses, you can protect your hand.

Why would I want to have Villain fold an inferior hand? You *want* Villain to get his money in when he is behind.

If you think that anyone calling a huge raise in a .01/.02 game automatically has one of the top 13 hands then I would venture that you haven't played much .01/.02 poker online. Even if they do have a hand better than AK like pocket 4s, do you really think they will automatically call when the flop comes out QJ7?

You're missing the point.  The problem here is the size of the pot compared to the remaining stacks.  So when you look at those things, the answer to your questions is YES.  I really do think that pocket 4's will automatically call when the flop comes QJ7 if they are getting at least 3 to 1 pot odds.

And don't always want to my opponent to fold an iferior hand.  I would much prefer he play it obviously.  However, I DON'T want him playing an inferior hand at the right price. 

[TwoToGo-Grave]

You're missing the point.  The problem here is the size of the pot compared to the remaining stacks.  So when you look at those things, the answer to your questions is YES.  I really do think that pocket 4's will automatically call when the flop comes QJ7 if they are getting at least 3 to 1 pot odds.

And don't always want to my opponent to fold an iferior hand.  I would much prefer he play it obviously.  However, I DON'T want him playing an inferior hand at the right price. 

If you jam the pot preflop and have only a little left over, you did not give your opponent the 'right price' to call with an inferior hand.  His pf error more than covers his postflop 'correct' call.  Remember that this is a CASH GAME...if you can ever get all or most of your chips in when ahead, do it.
Also, the 44 MAY call that all in on the flop, but it is a grave mistake to be in the habit of making plays so that you turn AK into a bluffing hand and nothing more (which is what you're advocating here; you're only trying to leave enough behind for a credible bluff from the start of the hand when you, in fact, hold a strong hand).  You make your money (mostly) from value bets (whether large or small) with the best hand, not from getting chips into the pot and then stealing that pot. 

[NotFadeAway]

Ghaleon:  I'm a bit confused, but it seems that you're saying that you don't want an opponent calling you with the right price on the flop here (assuming of course that you have him beat, in which case he needs a good price), therefore you want more money behind to knock him off his QJ, J10, etc.  Obviously, any hand with that is ace high or king high is far, far behind on the flop, so I assume it's those type of hands that I mentioned that you want to force out.  However, you have to take the preflop play into account.  Let's assume that you raise to $2.50 with AK, get called by J-10s, and then shove (for $2) a flop that you both missed.  While it might seem that you've given 3.5-1 odds (which are enough to force him to draw poorly, but not as bad as it could have been with more chips behind), you also have to factor in the -EV that your opponent put in preflop.  You can't just worry about 'protecting' your hand on the flop (namely since there aren't many hands that AK is ahead of that will call a missed flop anyway), at the expense of preflop EV.
Also, I doubt that too many opponents will call with fours on the flop, even getting 3.5-1.  And since you're shoving (not calling) your fold equity will easily make this play profitable anyway.  AK is a better short or medium stack hand than deep stack hand, so not playing deep with it postflop is the better way to go as  rule.

[Ghaleon]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?  It tells me that my opponent has defined his range to be extremely strong, and mostly a favorite (however small) over AK.  But unfortunately, WE are the ones who commited a pre-flop error by commiting our selves in a situation where we are only getting called if we're beat.

I want to play this hand in a way where I can push him off of his middle pair on a Q high flop.  I don't have to connect with the board to make money with AK.  But I DO need to connect with the board if my opponent is calling that big of a bet pre-flop.

[Martini]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?  It tells me that my opponent has defined his range to be extremely strong, and mostly a favorite (however small) over AK.  But unfortunately, WE are the ones who commited a pre-flop error by commiting our selves in a situation where we are only getting called if we're beat.

I want to play this hand in a way where I can push him off of his middle pair on a Q high flop.  I don't have to connect with the board to make money with AK.  But I DO need to connect with the board if my opponent is calling that big of a bet pre-flop.

I really think you are giving WAY too much credit to the average player in a .01/.02 game. The actual range of a player calling off half of his stack out of position pre-flop is much much larger than what you think.

[Detroitdad]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?  It tells me that my opponent has defined his range to be extremely strong

I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried, respectfully of course.

This is .01/.02 stakes. Most will play anything because half of their stack is anywhere from .50-2's.

B

[luckystraights]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?  It tells me that my opponent has defined his range to be extremely strong

I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried, respectfully of course.

This is .01/.02 stakes. Most will play anything because half of their stack is anywhere from .50-2's.

B

The tendencies of 1c/2c players seems to change a hell of a lot, most of the people know what there doing to some degree at least, but that can all change. Around this time my games are full of donks. I've just had someone stack off against me with AJ for instance.

[Ghaleon]

I'm really not buying this argument that 1c/2c players are donkeys.

Straights - you're playing 1c/2c, does that make you a donkey?

Believe it or not, there ARE people in those games who have read the books, practiced the game, and are starting to try and make money playing online poker.  And yes, there are tons of people in those games who only know poker from TV and will try and pull outrageous bluffs and huge all-in moves.

You should always try to adjust your game to suit the table that you are playing at.  But I just don't get the idea of dropping your game DOWN a level to meet the other players in the game.  How can you possibly ever get better if this is your strategy?

If you raise half your stack with AK at a table of NON-donkeys, you're only going to get called by a hand that beats you.

[Detroitdad]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?  It tells me that my opponent has defined his range to be extremely strong

I don't think you could be more wrong if you tried, respectfully of course.

This is .01/.02 stakes. Most will play anything because half of their stack is anywhere from .50-2's.

B

The tendencies of 1c/2c players seems to change a hell of a lot, most of the people know what there doing to some degree at least, but that can all change. Around this time my games are full of donks. I've just had someone stack off against me with AJ for instance.

Most can know what their doing, but when they look at the stack of $2's most of them just don't care. Whether their a "donkey" or not, they choose to play like one because of the stakes.

I will never play at those stakes again. There is only one strategy to utilize. All of this "over thinking" is wasted because they either don't recognize it or they simply don't care.

I'm really not buying this argument that 1c/2c players are donkeys.

Straights - you're playing 1c/2c, does that make you a donkey?

Believe it or not, there ARE people in those games who have read the books, practiced the game, and are starting to try and make money playing online poker.  And yes, there are tons of people in those games who only know poker from TV and will try and pull outrageous bluffs and huge all-in moves.

You should always try to adjust your game to suit the table that you are playing at.  But I just don't get the idea of dropping your game DOWN a level to meet the other players in the game.  How can you possibly ever get better if this is your strategy?

If you raise half your stack with AK at a table of NON-donkeys, you're only going to get called by a hand that beats you.

Ghaleon, I'm not saying every single player is a donkey. I'm saying most of them are. See my response above.

What I'm saying all these threads that have to do with strategy concerning these stakes are pretty much wasted. You can agree or disagree, I don't really care. I know I'm right.

[Martini]

I'm really not buying this argument that 1c/2c players are donkeys.

Straights - you're playing 1c/2c, does that make you a donkey?

Believe it or not, there ARE people in those games who have read the books, practiced the game, and are starting to try and make money playing online poker.  And yes, there are tons of people in those games who only know poker from TV and will try and pull outrageous bluffs and huge all-in moves.

You should always try to adjust your game to suit the table that you are playing at.  But I just don't get the idea of dropping your game DOWN a level to meet the other players in the game.  How can you possibly ever get better if this is your strategy?

If you raise half your stack with AK at a table of NON-donkeys, you're only going to get called by a hand that beats you.

Of course not ALL .01/.02 players are donkeys. But there are huge amounts of them who are. Plus their play can bring the quality of those people who are not donkeys because they will get their money in lighter due to the fact that there are so many donkeys. However, a competent player will be able to discern the complete fish from the players who know what they are doing after enough hands.

I respect what you are saying about betting and having too much of your stack in pre-flop but as been said before, the play at this level is way worse than you are giving them credit for. Since you apparently have not played .01/.02 online I think you should take the word from those who have.

I would also contend that a player at these stakes who is willing to go to the mat with any pair will just get their money in pre-flop and shove after a big raise from AK instead of do a stop and go. Any hand that has AK crushed will almost certainly shove pre-flop.

[luckystraights]

I'm really not buying this argument that 1c/2c players are donkeys.

Straights - you're playing 1c/2c, does that make you a donkey?

No offense, but are you drunk. I"m the one sticking up for 1c/2c players. Some of these regulars are very capable. Most know how to play.

My previous post about the donks, was a reflection of how the 1c/2c games change depending on the time of day. I play anytime, just about everyday from 8am ET, to 1pm ET to 3am ET, etc so I'm well versed with how these games can change depending on the time of day.

My point was that, depending on the time of day, table etc a 1c/2c player can be as fundamentally solid as a 10NL or higher grinder or be a total idiot who will open push with 98s for $3 into a re-raise. As I've commented on previously, I think the overall play at 1c/2c is underestimated, however it is not uncommon for a 1c/2c player to stack off with ATC, or call off half is stack with JTs, where we may usually only put him on AQs+, JJ+

As to your comment that I'm a donkey, my BB/100 is still bellow 10, so I would agree, I'm a donkey.

[Detroitdad]

I'm really not buying this argument that 1c/2c players are donkeys.

Straights - you're playing 1c/2c, does that make you a donkey?

No offense, but are you drunk. I"m the one sticking up for 1c/2c players. Some of these regulars are very capable. Most know how to play.

Have you not read any of Ghaleon's posts. He is not calling YOU a donk. He is being sarcastic..........

My previous post about the donks, was a reflection of how the 1c/2c games change depending on the time of day. I play anytime, just about everyday from 8am ET, to 1pm ET to 3am ET, etc so I'm well versed with how these games can change depending on the time of day.

My point was that, depending on the time of day, table etc a 1c/2c player can be as fundamentally solid as a 10NL or higher grinder or be a total idiot who will open push with 98s for $3 into a re-raise. As I've commented on previously, I think the overall play at 1c/2c is underestimated,  Sorry, but your wrong however it is not uncommon for a 1c/2c player to stack off with ATC, or call off half is stack with JTs, where we may usually only put him on AQs+, JJ+

As to your comment that I'm a donkey, my BB/100 is still bellow 10, so I would agree, I'm a donkey.

I can't read anymore of these strategy posts for this stakes. They just don't make sense to me.

B

[Dr. Neau]

Guys,

When your opponent calls for about half of his stack out of position, what does that tell you?

In a $0.01/$0.02 NL game...it tells me he's bored and makes at least minimum wage in his job.

[RagingAZN]

To quote a line from Scotty Nguyen in the 2006 Circuit Events...

"I sense heat baby!"

[Ghaleon]

Forget the stakes for a moment.  Let's say we are playing some kind of meaningful stakes.  What kind of hand does a guy need to call your re-re-raise out of position for half of his stack?

Most of those hands have AK beat right now.  End of discussion right there.  You've put all your chips into play with a hand that has a very good chance of being behind and needs to improve to win.

You can't just discount the opponent's calling range because you're playing at the smallest possible stakes.  You're talking about anonymous strangers here, so how can you judge them to be mostly donkeys.

Just because it's 1c/2c doesn't mean that everyone at the table has no concept of the value of money.  The pot contains at least $5 pre-flop.  That is a GIGANTIC pot in a 1c/2c game.  And when you consider that regardless of cards, you're both committed to the pot, therefore the pot is actually closer to $10, that is probably extremely rare at this level. 

I don't care who you are, playing a hand like Ax, KQ, KJ, QJ, QT, or JT here is going to be outrageously unprofitable when you're paying $5 to play it at a 1c/2c table.  When you play at the 1c/2c tables it's either because you have a basic understanding of the game and you are trying to grind a bankroll, or you are just too friggen broke to play anything else.  Neither of those type of players are going to gamble $5 on ONE HAND with anything less than 99 here.

But besides, there is another consideration here.  Even if you could convince me that this kind of play with AK is profitable (which I simply don't believe), you would still be showing an incredible amount of variance.  As played, there are only two outcomes.  You wither double up, or you get felted.

Grinding a bankroll at 1c/2c is a long, tough process.  It may take you thousands of hands to make just $5.  But here, you've committed yourself to one particular hand where you at least stand a decent chance of losing that much.

[NotFadeAway]

When I played at 1c/2c tables it didn't take anywhere near 'thousands of hands' to make $5.  Also, my past experience playing these tables tells me that AK is a monster against the calling range of the other players.  And since it's not a tournament, variance is just fine.  As for the people who make up these tables, they are mostly people who are either new, terrible, or just don't care.  Lucky is probably one of the few at these stakes who is both capable and willing to play respectable poker.

[Ghaleon]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing it.

What's an average pot for 1c/2c ring games?  (i'm asking here, I really don't know).  I'm going to guess that it's probably less than $1.

So fine, in most hands, we can open up our opponents range and probably show a profit by pushing our AK hard pre-flop.

But when that pot gets to be $5 - $10, I don't care who you think your opponent is, you have to know he's somewhat serious about playing the hand.

Even if our oppoenent is a super-donkey, is he really going to play KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, or JT, this hard often enough for us to show a profit with AK?  Are we ever seeing unpaired, non-face cards here?

And I don't know why you don't care about variance.  But do whatever you want.

Lucky - I'm guessing here but it sounds to me like you're starting to get serious about learning the game, and you are trying to become a profitable poker player.  You want to play, learn, make money, move up, repeat.  Right?  If so, then you absolutely SHOULD care about variance.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

And I don't know why you don't care about variance.  But do whatever you want.

Lucky - I'm guessing here but it sounds to me like you're starting to get serious about learning the game, and you are trying to become a profitable poker player.  You want to play, learn, make money, move up, repeat.  Right?  If so, then you absolutely SHOULD care about variance.

The problem with caring about variance is that you should have the bankroll to where you can with worry only about making the MOST +EV play.  If you lose with even a slight edge, it shouldn't hurt you, as you should be stocked enough to be able to take all edges.  If not, then you are above your bankroll and really should move down or something.

[Martini]

@Ghaleon
The play at microstakes can be truly terrible. I don't know why you refuse to accept that evaluation from the multiple people who have played at those stakes who have posted comments with words to that effect. Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to download an online poker client and just watch some play at the microstakes level to see for yourself since you are so incredulous that someone could call off half of their stack with KQ, QT, KJ, etc. In fact there are plenty of instances of players shoving all in way lighter than that.

As for the massive overbet with AK. If you could get someone to call off half their stack with a dominated hand, why wouldn't you overbet the pot? How do you think microstakes players can achieve huge ROI rates of better than 20 BB/hour? In fact, unless you raise enough then you probably aren't going to thin the field enough to shake off the ATC and "but I was soooted" players.

[luckystraights]

Sorry, I'm still not seeing it.

What's an average pot for 1c/2c ring games?  (i'm asking here, I really don't know).  I'm going to guess that it's probably less than $1.

minimum pot I sit at is usually 70c with 50% to flop, average pot on my table is usually $5. In this spot, only hands I really care about is a set, unlikely or kings or aces, and with a nut flush, I've good a great chance to improve if behind. If he's on the flop with QQ or lower, I simply don't care. This ain't my tournament life, and remember a push on this spot is usually a set, or KK, AA from me, if he felts my AK with JJ here, next time he may get more in against me in a similar spot, or try to push me off what he feels is a semi bluff in a much smaller pot when I've got him crushed.

to call a 1/2 stack re-raise I'll expect to see QQ, and with a nut flush and 2 overs, I don't mind getting it all-in, especially at 1c/2c where people have called similar 3-bets with AJ, AQ, AK and even KQs.

[luckystraights]

In a rush, I can find a full stack example later, but this is typical at certain times of the day.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2762824

[Dr. Neau]

Forget the stakes for a moment.  Let's say we are playing some kind of meaningful stakes.  What kind of hand does a guy need to call your re-re-raise out of position for half of his stack?

What's the guy's net worth?

[Ghaleon]

to call a 1/2 stack re-raise I'll expect to see QQ, and with a nut flush and 2 overs, I don't mind getting it all-in, especially at 1c/2c where people have called similar 3-bets with AJ, AQ, AK and even KQs.

So you put him on exactly QQ when he called your half stack re-raise?  If that is the case, why make the raise?  You didn't know you were going to flop the nut flush draw, and QQ has you beat here.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

to call a 1/2 stack re-raise I'll expect to see QQ, and with a nut flush and 2 overs, I don't mind getting it all-in, especially at 1c/2c where people have called similar 3-bets with AJ, AQ, AK and even KQs.

So you put him on exactly QQ when he called your half stack re-raise?  If that is the case, why make the raise?  You didn't know you were going to flop the nut flush draw, and QQ has you beat here.

Well, if you're against QQ, you have to play and might as well get it in once you have already put in quite a few chips.  You have the overlay, and you obviously still do on the flop with the FD and two overs.  You'd be insane to fold.  If you reraise AI pf, then at least you'll see all five cards w/o being blown off your hand...if you know it's a race, you would be making an error to not get it in pf.
On the flop, you must push.  If you draw a fold from a small pair, that's great.  You WILL HAVE TO CALL if he shoves, given your price, and you may lose the chance to win what he has left if you improve, as four clubs (or potentially an ace or king) could very well kill your action (yet if you don't hit the turn, you'll still be priced in to call the river vs. only one pair).  Again, variance shouldn't matter, since you should be bankrolled to only worry if it's +EV or not.