|
Mr.Victor
|
 |
« on: May 13, 2008 at 17:00 » |
|
I'm a tournament director for a bar league and I came upon a situation in which I wasn't sure how to rule. There were 5 players in a hand and one of them went all in. He then flipped his card face up accidentally showing trips and then quickly flipped them back over realizing that he had prematurely exposed his cards. Two out of the other 4 players in the hand saw his cards, and two did not. Is it correct and fair that all players in the hand know what his cards were? What is the ruling on this situation?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
cigarherb
|
|
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008 at 17:28 » |
|
Yes, all players in the hand should have access to the same information. His hand is not dead, but he should get a warning the first time and a penalty if he does it again.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
AK, can't win with it, can't beat it.
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008 at 18:54 » |
|
Yep. Show one show all. His hand needs to be revealed to all players so everyone is on equal footing.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
(not a real alcoholic beverage)
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008 at 21:34 » |
|
I'm a tournament director for a bar league and I came upon a situation in which I wasn't sure how to rule. There were 5 players in a hand and one of them went all in. He then flipped his card face up accidentally showing trips and then quickly flipped them back over realizing that he had prematurely exposed his cards. Two out of the other 4 players in the hand saw his cards, and two did not. Is it correct and fair that all players in the hand know what his cards were? What is the ruling on this situation?
The other posts are correct, but just out of curiosity, define "accidentally". Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
Wedge Rock
Global Moderator
Regular
Posts: 8309
CC>CC # R-7604
|
|
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008 at 21:44 » |
|
1: arising from extrinsic causes : incidental, nonessential 2 a: occurring unexpectedly or by chance b: happening without intent or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accidentally |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Wedge Rock (not a real rock)  |
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008 at 21:51 » |
|
Smart alec!!!!  Let me be more clear...by accidental, do you mean he didn't mean to flip them, or he did it prematurely? You said prematurely later in the post. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Mr.Victor
|
|
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008 at 11:33 » |
|
He flipped prematurely and then quickly flipped them back over realizing his mistake. Whether accidentally or prematurely, it would be the same ruling correct?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Dr. Neau
|
|
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008 at 13:11 » |
|
Accidentally prematurely.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
(not a real doctor) Concentrate on winning your tournament...let Dr. Neau manage it. http://drneau.com |
|
|
|
huskerinct
|
|
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008 at 13:56 » |
|
Accidentally prematurely.
Sounds like my last bedroom escapade! Hi-Yoooooo! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
There are pessimists and optimists in the world. Some see the glass half empty, some see the glass half full. I am a realist. I know eventually I will have to wash that ****ing glass.
|
|
|
|
demon604
|
|
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008 at 15:15 » |
|
Accidentally prematurely.
Sounds like my last bedroom escapade! Hi-Yoooooo! dude... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I find a man who admits that he can't take the hard stuff, is sexy as all hell.
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008 at 08:38 » |
|
He flipped prematurely and then quickly flipped them back over realizing his mistake. Whether accidentally or prematurely, it would be the same ruling correct?
That would depend on your house rules. Many games have a rule in which an intentionally exposed hand is dead. So, there is a big distinction between premature and accident. It doesn't sound like you have such a house rule, though. If you had, his hand would be ruled dead whereas, if it was an accident, it would not be dead. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008 at 04:27 » |
|
It's always hard to prove someones intention...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008 at 08:01 » |
|
It's always hard to prove someones intention...
Yes, but it's easy to see if they flipped them on purpose or not. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
ChrisChip10
Regular
Posts: 2439
I think, therefore I bet.
|
|
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008 at 08:13 » |
|
Accidentally prematurely.
Sounds like my last bedroom escapade! Hi-Yoooooo! dude... Don't you mean "Dud"!? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I think, therefore, I bet
You betta you betta you bet!
Chris
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008 at 08:27 » |
|
Yes, but it's easy to see if they flipped them on purpose or not.
On purpose or due to misunderstanding? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Dr. Neau
|
|
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008 at 09:06 » |
|
Yes, but it's easy to see if they flipped them on purpose or not.
On purpose or due to misunderstanding? Due to a misunderstanding on purpose. Accidentally. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
(not a real doctor) Concentrate on winning your tournament...let Dr. Neau manage it. http://drneau.com |
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008 at 10:14 » |
|
Yes, but it's easy to see if they flipped them on purpose or not.
On purpose or due to misunderstanding? Is there a difference? Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
tator2k
|
|
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008 at 14:32 » |
|
Don't the rules state, once you're all-in you're hand can not be mucked or made dead?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
CC>C #7599
|
|
|
|
Martini
|
|
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008 at 21:38 » |
|
Don't the rules state, once you're all-in you're hand can not be mucked or made dead?
House rules can override standard or widely accepted rules but they should also address how to resolve situations like this where a person has their hand killed after declaring all in. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
(not a real alcoholic beverage)
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008 at 23:20 » |
|
Don't the rules state, once you're all-in you're hand can not be mucked or made dead?
No, it says that once you're all-in and there is no more betting, you must show your cards. Therefore, you cannot fold them and the dealer should not muck them. However, they can still be declared dead. For example, what if you are all-in, turn over your cards, and see that you have three cards? The hand is dead. What if you find you have two of the same card? It's dead. What if you acted on a hand with a joker in a game that doesn't use a joker? It's dead. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
R-Ho
|
|
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2008 at 16:10 » |
|
What if you find you have two of the same card? It's dead.
Gobbs This voids all action, then you've got to unravel why the player didn't say something earlier... |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008 at 16:12 by R-Ho »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2008 at 17:30 » |
|
What if you find you have two of the same card? It's dead.
Gobbs This voids all action, then you've got to unravel why the player didn't say something earlier... Not necessarily...but probably. You're right. I got a bit carried away, but the point is the same, I guess. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
R-Ho
|
|
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2008 at 23:10 » |
|
What if you find you have two of the same card? It's dead.
Gobbs This voids all action, then you've got to unravel why the player didn't say something earlier... Not necessarily...but probably. You're right. I got a bit carried away, but the point is the same, I guess. Gobbs Yeah, I get carried way at times, too... |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008 at 08:04 by R-Ho »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2008 at 01:45 » |
|
On purpose or due to misunderstanding?
Is there a difference? Yes, the intent. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Jambine
Global Moderator
Regular
Posts: 5184
My Passion
|
|
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2008 at 07:37 » |
|
If your penalty is based on intent, you will never be able to give a penalty.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Cash game at Three Creek Ranch
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2008 at 11:18 » |
|
If your penalty is based on intent, you will never be able to give a penalty.
Intentionally does not mean he intended to break the rules, it means he intentionally turned over the cards. If somebody reaches down, picks up the cards, and turns them over; he intentionally turned them over. End of story. I don't need to know his intent, only that he intentionally turned them over. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008 at 03:40 » |
|
So, even if he was mislead into turning them over by another player hiding his cards or acting out of turn it doesn't make any difference?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008 at 14:03 » |
|
So, even if he was mislead into turning them over by another player hiding his cards or acting out of turn it doesn't make any difference?
Those would be mitigating circumstances that could change the penalty or cause the penalty to not be enforced; however, these facts were not present in the OP. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008 at 02:36 » |
|
Well, what I said was I don't like rules based on intent, beause intent can never be proven without mindreading.
So, rules should be based on actions.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2008 at 08:40 » |
|
Well, what I said was I don't like rules based on intent, beause intent can never be proven without mindreading.
So, rules should be based on actions.
First, have your expressed your opinion to Major League Baseball, the NBA, all soccer leagues around the world, etc. All of them have rules based on intent. Second, this rule is not based on intent, it is based on action. Did a person pick up his cards and turn them over, or did the person pick them up, fumble them, and they turned over. Those are actions. One is intentional, one is not intentional. Don't mistake intent for intentional. I do not need to read your mind (in most cases) to determine if you intentionally turned up your cards, I just have to see it happen. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2008 at 02:59 » |
|
Don't mistake intent for intentional.
English is not my primary language, maybe I got thing mixed up? Intent is "why" you do something, right? And nobody can tell "why" I'm doing something without reading my mind. Intentional is "on purpose", opposite to "accidetally"? If you pick you cards up and turn them over it is intentionally. But you can't have rules saying the it shall be ruled differently based on your intent. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2008 at 09:12 » |
|
Don't mistake intent for intentional.
English is not my primary language, maybe I got thing mixed up? Intent is "why" you do something, right? And nobody can tell "why" I'm doing something without reading my mind. Intentional is "on purpose", opposite to "accidetally"? If you pick you cards up and turn them over it is intentionally. But you can't have rules saying the it shall be ruled differently based on your intent. Let's use a comparison. Are you a soccer fan? Ever see anybody get a red card? Why did they get it? Maybe this will help explain the difference. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
Nerre
|
|
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2008 at 05:19 » |
|
Sorry, not much into sports, but my son plays soccer. And I know they get penalties if the ball touches their hand, even if they did not intend to touch it with their hand.
So, they get penalties for what they do, not why they do it.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Don't Miss Me While I'm On My Cruise
Regular
Posts: 4344
2010 Orange Bowl Champions
|
|
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2008 at 20:36 » |
|
Sorry, not much into sports, but my son plays soccer. And I know they get penalties if the ball touches their hand, even if they did not intend to touch it with their hand.
So, they get penalties for what they do, not why they do it.
You last line is incorrect. If the official believes a foul was particularly hard and a player intended to hurt another player or did not intend to "tackle" the ball, but tackle the player, the official can give a person a red card which automatically ejects him from the game. The rule is totally based on the official reading the intent of the play and is essential to ensure all players safety in the game. Similarly, there are often times when intent needs to be determined as best as possible in other sports and poker to ensure the safety and fairness for all players. Gobbs |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You can't have an opinion contrary to a fact.
|
|
|
|
How To Host a Poker Tournament 
