How to handle alternate players?

[Catch22]

I have been able to avoid it up until now, but I may need to use an alternate system for my game tonight.

What is the best way to handle alternate players? Just seat them with a full stack when the first player busts?

I have seen tournaments where the dealer pulls a blinds worth of chips out of the alternate stack each orbit, then when the alternate player is seated, those chips are put into each pot as dead money until they are used up.

Which way is better? Is there another way to do it?

[Gobbs]

I have been able to avoid it up until now, but I may need to use an alternate system for my game tonight.

What is the best way to handle alternate players? Just seat them with a full stack when the first player busts?

I have seen tournaments where the dealer pulls a blinds worth of chips out of the alternate stack each orbit, then when the alternate player is seated, those chips are put into each pot as dead money until they are used up.

Which way is better? Is there another way to do it?

Not an answer to your question, but why do you have alternate players?  Wouldn't it be easier to limit the field instead of allowing alternates?   I've never been a fan of alternate players.

Gobbs

[Catch22]

It is a league game, for points, and I don't want to deny players an opportunity to earn points.

[KingRichard]

Can't you just play more tables? I know this sounds obvious, and you may not have the room.

[Dr. Neau]

As soon as someone busts out, the first alternate takes their seat with a full stack.  Penalizing the alternate when they are sitting there waiting to play is not fair.

[austin5string]

Can't you just play more tables? I know this sounds obvious, and you may not have the room.

I'm wondering this, too.. What are some more details about your setup?  How many players/tables do you have?

[Martini]

I would add another table or even stick an extra player on a full table if I had to in order to avoid an alternate situation. What if no one busts out for a few blind levels? Someone is going to show up and maybe not even play?

If you absolutely don't have enough room then it should be first come, first served based on RSVP'ing to the game. If 20 people say they will show then they are the 20 to play. I would allow someone to come as standby in case there is a late scratch but they would there with the understanding that they might not play.

[Dr. Neau]

What if no one busts out for a few blind levels? Someone is going to show up and maybe not even play?

That's the risk of being an alternate...therefore, you need to make sure an alternate knows they are an alternate before they drive across town.

[Martini]

What if no one busts out for a few blind levels? Someone is going to show up and maybe not even play?

That's the risk of being an alternate...therefore, you need to make sure an alternate knows they are an alternate before they drive across town.

I realize that as described in the second paragraph of that post. I don't know why I wasn't putting two and two together for the OP but another post of his just implied to me that he wanted to guarantee that everyone got to play but he just wanted to guarantee everyone the *opportunity* to play. My bad.

[Gobbs]

Too late for this one, probably, but in the future, make sure people know that they need to RSVP as early as possible since there is limited space (I'm assuming there is limited space).  That way, if they lose the opportunity to earn points, it's their fault.

Gobbs

[gallant]

I've wondered about this situation before as well. It came up once or twice in a free poker league I was running.  In most of the responses to the OP people expressed their dislike of using alternates but no one really answered the question. 

I want to know what to do if there is absolutely no other way but to use alternates, what is the best way to handle seating and chip stacks? By that I mean a table breaks just before the game, you only have space for 55 people now, 11 at each table, and 60 show up. What do you do with the other 5? How far in to the tournament can they be seated? Do you take any blinds from them or let them sit with a full stack? Are there any other things to be aware of?

[Martini]

I would say that if there is an open seat in the first three rounds then the first alternate can sit down with a full stack. If another seat opens, the second alternate. etc.

[pathand]

I hosted a 3 table /24 player tournament where 3 extras showed up. They paid their entry fees knowing that they would be entering as alternates. They were given the option to get the entry fee back if they were next on the list and did not want to enter too deep into the tourney. It was a 10K tournament with no rebuys or addons. I chose to let them enter with the full 10k in chips. They were seated as others were eliminated. All 3 entered after the first few levels were completed. All of the original 24 players had agreed with my decision or I wouldn't have allowed the alternates to play. As it turned out, all 3 players were eliminated before the final table of eight. Was this correct or incorrect? For my tournament, I felt it was. However, I'm sure there are those who would not agree with my decision. I have not been involved with any other tournaments that were handled the same way. The only thing that comes close is rebuy and/or addon tournaments. I personally don't see any difference and I would make the same decision if I was faced with the same scenario in the future. I'm sure better short-stack players would have finished deeper in the tournament, but such was not the case.                         

[Dr. Neau]

Here's an idea.  Handle alternate players "Supply and Demand Style".

You have a $40 buy-in tournament.  You have room for 24 players.  27 players show.

You: "Okay everyone.  We have too many players.  Everyone put your hands in the air."
<everyone puts hands up>
You: "Okay.  Who will play if the buy-in is $40?"
<everyone keeps hands up>
You: "Good.  Who will play if the buy-in is $41?"
<everyone keeps hands up, but they are looking at each other>
You: "Good. $42?"
<one person gets disgusted and leaves>
You: "Great!!  2 more to go!  $43?  $44?  $45?.......................$57"
<two people lower their hands>
You: "Shuffle up and deal!!"

 - or -

You could do it "Pseudo-Airline Style"
You: "Okay everyone...first three people to get up and leave get $10 off their buy-in for the next tournament"
<one person bolts>
You: "Okay...first two people to get up and leave get $20 off their buy-in"
<two people leave>
You: "Shuffle up and deal!"

[Martini]

Or you could do it TRUE airline style and just say "Sorry you weren't here 45 minutes before the tournament started so forfeit your seat."

[R-Ho]

You could do it "Pseudo-Airline Style"
You: "Okay everyone...first three people to get up and leave get $10 off their buy-in for the next tournament"
<one person bolts>
You: "Okay...first two people to get up and leave get $20 off their buy-in"
<two people leave>
You: "Shuffle up and deal!"

I figure you're joking?  My problem would be that 10 players would stand up and then I'd have to sort that out.  

[Gobbs]

Best solution, first reserved, first to get seats.  Everybody else, tell your story walking and get to stepping.  If somebody doesn't show or cancels, we'll give you a call.

Gobbs

[Ghaleon]

I play in a home game where this comes up.  A friend of mine hosts a game but only has room for 20.  He usually sends an invitation via email to about 25 or 30 players that he knows.  First 20 to RSVP get in.

However, usually more show up.  Very rarely does one of the confirmed players not show, but if it happens, one of the alternates gets the seat.  I don't know how he determines which alternate gets the seat though.

Anyway, more people show up because there is always a cash game that starts as soon as the tourney is consolidated to 1 table.  And not all tourney players stay for the cash game. 

So you can let the alternate players show up and odds are that they'll be playing within a few hours.

[Gobbs]

I play in a home game where this comes up.  A friend of mine hosts a game but only has room for 20.  He usually sends an invitation via email to about 25 or 30 players that he knows.  First 20 to RSVP get in.

However, usually more show up.  Very rarely does one of the confirmed players not show, but if it happens, one of the alternates gets the seat.  I don't know how he determines which alternate gets the seat though.

Anyway, more people show up because there is always a cash game that starts as soon as the tourney is consolidated to 1 table.  And not all tourney players stay for the cash game. 

So you can let the alternate players show up and odds are that they'll be playing within a few hours.

That's a good idea - I often do have cash games during and after tournaments, but most of my players would rather be doing something else than waiting around a few hours.  They have other games they can attend if they can't get into mine.  So, the cash games are typically populated by people who were knocked out of the tournament or people who simply just planned on playing a cash game and showed up later on purpose.

Gobbs

[Crimson]

I've been using the "vamp" method. One time my 25-30 player tournament all of a sudden has 38 people so I found a cheap plastic table I had sitting around and pulled in lawn chairs. I also took my "good" poker table and moved it closer to the fireplace so the players on that side could sit on the hearth instead of chairs.

Now that I run my game at my store, when I ran out of chairs I would borrow some from the Subway next door and wake up early the next morning to return them. I have plenty of chairs now so I don't have to do that.

I've found that the one number of players I prepare for is the exact count that absolutely will not show. I prepare for 26, I get 30. Prepare for 30, get 21. I can't win.

[Ghaleon]

Just a couple of things to note here.

If you extend the invitation in advance and request RSVP's by a certain date/time, then you are under no obligation to accomodate someone who RSVP'd late, or did not RSVP at all.

Alternates are just that, "alternates".  They should know that they are waiting possibly for nothing.  Just because they show up, doesn't mean that they will get to play.

In no-rebuy tournaments, it probably shouldn't take any longer than two hours for the tourney to be consolidated and a table freed up.  Then any tourney losers and alternates can start up a cash game, or second tourney if they wish.

With that said, the alternates are still guests and as host, I will do my best to make them comfortable.  After all, I do want them coming back each time I host a game.  And hopefully they'll remember to RSVP next time.  Also, alternates are incredibly handy when you need someone to run out for pizza.

I usually have my living room and TV available and will put out snacks.  If there is a good sporting event on TV, that usually keeps the alternates comfortable and happy.

And if you really want to keep people occupied while the main tourney winds down....you can't do better than Guitar Hero

[Dr. Neau]

If you extend the invitation in advance and request RSVP's by a certain date/time, then you are under no obligation to accomodate someone who RSVP'd late, or did not RSVP at all.

Dude, I get the feeling you're treating a poker tournament invite like a wedding invite.

With a wedding invite, you send it out to Xhundred people and you have to accomodate everyone who shows.

With a poker tournament, you send the invites out and let everyone know the first X that respond get seats...everyone else goes on the wait list.

It isn't that hard.

[Ghaleon]

If you extend the invitation in advance and request RSVP's by a certain date/time, then you are under no obligation to accomodate someone who RSVP'd late, or did not RSVP at all.

Dude, I get the feeling you're treating a poker tournament invite like a wedding invite.

With a wedding invite, you send it out to Xhundred people and you have to accomodate everyone who shows.

With a poker tournament, you send the invites out and let everyone know the first X that respond get seats...everyone else goes on the wait list.

It isn't that hard.

I have two tables and 20 folding chairs.  If I send the invite to 25 people, and say that the first 20 RSVP's get seats, then the first 20 get seats.  period.  If 21 people show up, that last guy is playing Guitar Hero or watching baseball until the cash game opens up.

What I mean is, that as the host, I shouldn't feel guilty if that 21st guy isn't playing.  He's welcome in my home, I'll make him feel comfortable, let him watch TV or play guitar hero, offer drinks and food, and let him join the cash game when it starts.

But he's not getting into the tournement unless one of the other 20 guys doesn't show.  If someone busts out, I'm not going to give that open seat to the alternate player.

And here is my reasoning.  The player who busted out, is also waiting for a cash game or second tourney to start.  Why should he have to wait longer?

[Gobbs]

If you extend the invitation in advance and request RSVP's by a certain date/time, then you are under no obligation to accomodate someone who RSVP'd late, or did not RSVP at all.

Dude, I get the feeling you're treating a poker tournament invite like a wedding invite.

With a wedding invite, you send it out to Xhundred people and you have to accomodate everyone who shows.

With a poker tournament, you send the invites out and let everyone know the first X that respond get seats...everyone else goes on the wait list.

It isn't that hard.

I have two tables and 20 folding chairs.  If I send the invite to 25 people, and say that the first 20 RSVP's get seats, then the first 20 get seats.  period.  If 21 people show up, that last guy is playing Guitar Hero or watching baseball until the cash game opens up.

What I mean is, that as the host, I shouldn't feel guilty if that 21st guy isn't playing.  He's welcome in my home, I'll make him feel comfortable, let him watch TV or play guitar hero, offer drinks and food, and let him join the cash game when it starts.

But he's not getting into the tournement unless one of the other 20 guys doesn't show.  If someone busts out, I'm not going to give that open seat to the alternate player.

And here is my reasoning.  The player who busted out, is also waiting for a cash game or second tourney to start.  Why should he have to wait longer?

I agree, but the more important reasoning for not allowing alternates is that it's simply not fair to the 19 remaining players.

Gobbs