check or raise?

[4 of a kind]

Here is the situation. 10 payer table. First hand of the night. Blinds 100/200

 I am to the dealers right. The player UTG folds, a few other players call the BB and then it gets around to me. I have 8 8 hole cards. Should I just call the BB or put in a raise?

 If do raise, how much should I raise it to? I don't want to go to high and scare the remaining players from playing their cards. I am thinking 3-4 X the BB.

 Should I call and hope to make my set on the flop, turn or river?

 But what happens if dealer raises? or one of the blinds? most times the SB just completes the bet and the BB checks.

[dave987654321]

I call

[Detroitdad]

I raise 3 x's the BB

[Martini]

In that position you can fold, call, or raise. For me I'd call. You are priced in to set mine which is what I want to do with pocket Eights. With a mid pair like 88 there is no real "safe" flop except for hitting a set. If a Broadway card comes out you don't know if you're good or not. If you flop an overpair to the board then the flop either tripped up or looks pretty straighty/two-pairy. I'll see a cheap flop and fold if I miss. if I get raised I'd have to see how much dead money is in the pot to see if I'm priced in to continue.

[4 of a kind]

I will most likely raise. I mean I am in good position, and if I can knock a few more players out of the pot the better it will be for me.

 Also if I do just call. the dealer and the blinds still have to act and they coulld raise.

 I will take my chances on making my set on the flop. If I don't I would probably fold. I figure it not worth trying to make it on the turn and river, and it could cost me a lot of chips if I don't connect.

 I think raising before the flop and see how it goes from there is right play.

[Midnight Rose]

I ask myself what I expect to happen post flop.  First hand of the night, I don't know the rest of the table (unless I have played with them before), so I can't yet depend on any reads.  With a middling pair like 8s, I can't afford to think that I have a huge hand (so I disagree with the OP's statement that "I don't want to go to high and scare the remaining players from playing their cards."  Eights ain't all that, after all).  Simply limping like the rest of the table, leaves you without any way to know where you are on the flop if you don't hit a set or at least a coordinated (in your favor) flop.  And as the cutoff, you have decent position. 

All that in mind, I'd raise there, 3-4XBB; maybe more, maybe less, depending on what kind of preliminary feel I have for the table.  My next action, of course, depends on what the others do; if the dealer raises and you get call/call/call, your action might be different than raise/fold/fold/fold.  Likewise, it depends on how much you're re-raised, whether another player re-raises that raise, which position the re-raiser(s) has, etc.

Another thing I just thought of: if you raise and the flop misses the callers (checked around to you) but also doesn't bring an 8, you might be able to represent a stronger hand with a c-bet.

[Langham]

I call. By "a few other players" I assume you mean at least three. With that many limpers in front of me, I'll try to see a cheap flop to hit a set. If that happens, hopefully an Ace comes with the flop to "help" one of my opponents.

But what happens if dealer raises? or one of the blinds? most times the SB just completes the bet and the BB checks.

This is a great question! If the button raises, you have a couple things going for you. First, if there are no other raises before it gets back to you, you can complete the pre-flop betting by calling. And, in most cases, there would probably be a few callers between the button raise and you, so you should be getting nice pot odds to see the flop. Unless it's a massive 5x BB raise, I'm not worried too much about the button.

If the button calls and one of the blinds raises, a call is still reasonable provided you're pretty sure that the button won't re-raise, putting you in a big mess. Of course, since it's the first hand, this paragraph is slightly useless   

[pauld22]

I ask myself what I expect to happen post flop.  First hand of the night, I don't know the rest of the table (unless I have played with them before), so I can't yet depend on any reads.  With a middling pair like 8s, I can't afford to think that I have a huge hand (so I disagree with the OP's statement that "I don't want to go to high and scare the remaining players from playing their cards."  Eights ain't all that, after all).  Simply limping like the rest of the table, leaves you without any way to know where you are on the flop if you don't hit a set or at least a coordinated (in your favor) flop.  And as the cutoff, you have decent position. 

All that in mind, I'd raise there, 3-4XBB; maybe more, maybe less, depending on what kind of preliminary feel I have for the table.  My next action, of course, depends on what the others do; if the dealer raises and you get call/call/call, your action might be different than raise/fold/fold/fold.  Likewise, it depends on how much you're re-raised, whether another player re-raises that raise, which position the re-raiser(s) has, etc.

Another thing I just thought of: if you raise and the flop misses the callers (checked around to you) but also doesn't bring an 8, you might be able to represent a stronger hand with a c-bet.

This is the most important part to me.  Take control of the action.  On the flip side of Rose's thinking, if you do hit on, say, a 2 6 8 rainbow baord it may look like a c-bet to others and induce action.

[4 of a kind]

 There is sure a lot of good information in this thread.  A lot of things to consider.

 langham, I am talking about 4-5 limpers.

[Detroitdad]

I didn't realize there were limpers, didn't read it all that well, I'm currently in a heated free money tourney battle.

With 4-5 limpers and pocket 8's. I either bet about 1100 (that would be about a pot sized bet) or fold. As Rose so correctly stated, it would depend on what I thought of the table, their skill level, they aggressiveness, ect....

If I didn't know jack about them, I probably still raise, try to set the momentum of the table, let them know I'm there to run and control this table. With that in mind, I might not even need pocket 8's. I might just raise it up with j/5 os babeeeeeeeee

B

[TwoToGo-Grave]

With 4-5 limpers and pocket 8's. I either bet about 1100 (that would be about a pot sized bet) or fold. As Rose so correctly stated, it would depend on what I thought of the table, their skill level, they aggressiveness, ect....

I disagree with this notion.  If it's the first hand, one assumes you are at least fairly deep, right?  If so, you can't fold something that may make a monster stacking hand, and while raising is not bad, it may be a risk that is just not needed this early on (say you raise to 800 and c-bet for 1800, and if you run into a larger pair on a raggedy flop, you could get in even more trouble).  I would see a raise as a pot building maneveur, so I would have to know exactly how deep you are before really making a good decision.

[Detroitdad]

With 4-5 limpers and pocket 8's. I either bet about 1100 (that would be about a pot sized bet) or fold. As Rose so correctly stated, it would depend on what I thought of the table, their skill level, they aggressiveness, ect....

I disagree with this notion.  If it's the first hand, one assumes you are at least fairly deep, right?  If so, you can't fold something that may make a monster stacking hand, and while raising is not bad, it may be a risk that is just not needed this early on (say you raise to 800 and c-bet for 1800, and if you run into a larger pair on a raggedy flop, you could get in even more trouble).  I would see a raise as a pot building maneveur, so I would have to know exactly how deep you are before really making a good decision.

Depending on the people at the table. If its a less aggressive table then I have no problem bumping it up to a grand. After the flop I'm in solid position so I can re-evaluate my plan of action.

I'm also sending a message to the table, if your going to play hands you better not limp!!!

What would you do?

I don't think a 1k bet into a 1k pot isn't a crazy bet, if I get a caller I'm going to put them on a top hand, then pending the flop, I just have to out play them.

I'm not one of those that worry about getting felted first. Just cuz its early in a tourney, I have no problem playing a big hand. If the flop comes out something crazy, then one of the limpers bets, I'm in position to get rid of my 1k loss.

B

sorry, I know my reply is all over the place, I figure it will give you something to do (deciphering it) 

[Martini]

DD, I feel that you lose the value of your pocket pairs by trying that maneuver. If you are going to raise and try to outplay someone after the flop then you don't need a real hand to do that.

If you raise and get re-raised then you are not getting the right odds to try to catch your set on a presumed overpair. But if you flat call and there is a raise you can still salvage out some pre-flop pot odds and have a good bunch of implied odds you flop well.

[Detroitdad]

that makes sense, I don't play them like that every time, 13 plus factors have to come into play first.

I'm about 10 minutes into SuperBad..........pretty funny so far

[Martini]

Oh for goodness sakes. Don't surf while watching SUPERBAD!!! lol

As usual, there are as many ways to play certain hands as people you ask. Flat calling is just what I prefer to do in that situation for the reasons given.

[links_slayer]

I'm about 10 minutes into SuperBad..........pretty funny so far

You're in for a treat...it only gets better.

To the OP: I just call.

[Detroitdad]

Oh for goodness sakes. Don't surf while watching SUPERBAD!!! lol

As usual, there are as many ways to play certain hands as people you ask. Flat calling is just what I prefer to do in that situation for the reasons given.

I understand, and sometimes I would, but sometimes I wouldn't. In this specific situation, decent position with money in the pot, I want the hand, I want the frikken money now!!

their in class drawing Richards!!!

lol

[NotFadeAway]

I'd call here, no question.  If I was short stacked I might shove, but I wouldn't want to make a raise when the conditions are so perfect for a small pair (many limpers in an unraised pot.)

[demon604]

Very rare for me to go outside the box on the first hand so I'm definitely limping in to try and catch a flop.

[Eralis]

Raise 3-4x BB. If people have a marginal hand, they would fold it. Be the agressive player. The agressive player tends to be the one winning pots before showdown.

[Detroitdad]

That is one of the beautiful things about poker. A simple scenario, 11 different answers and they pretty much are all correct, just mine is more correct 

[Eralis]

You could also raise about a potsize bet. That way K J or Q J might even fold. You probably have the best hand with your pocket 8, and you have to make people pay to try beat your 8s

[yme]

I call and fold to any bet if an over card hits and I didn't hit trips.

[FSL009]

I raise 3xBB or more capeed to the pot size depending on the players I'm playing.  I would be trying to clear all of the KJ, AJ, 910s type hands by representing a decent pocket pair.  With any luck everyone folds and you don't have to worry about making your set. 

So if the players are very tight then 3xBB would normally represent a decent hand for me, and they will fold unless they have 10s and above. 

If they are loose or don't know me I would be more inclined to price it pot sized to encourage them to fold out.

But the down side is when you get a caller you are probably up against a top 5 hand and that could be a real issue if you miss the flop.  So I would only do it in your position or later position so you at least have the advantage of acting last.

[Martini]

When I get a small or medium pocket pair I want to stack someone with it. My set versus their two pair or their top pair/top kicker or an overpair. Or my boat against their flush. Stacking someone requires a showdown so when I'm set mining I want to have as favorable pot odds as possible and that means seeing flops cheaply.

If I'm going to try to make someone fold after the flop then I can do that with betting alone and the cards I hold won't matter.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

When I get a small or medium pocket pair I want to stack someone with it. My set versus their two pair or their top pair/top kicker or an overpair. Or my boat against their flush. Stacking someone requires a showdown so when I'm set mining I want to have as favorable pot odds as possible and that means seeing flops cheaply.

If I'm going to try to make someone fold after the flop then I can do that with betting alone and the cards I hold won't matter.

Excellent post (as usual) Martini.  I feel the same about these small pairs, by the way.

[hachkc]

Check and hope to get a big hand cheap.

Raise smaller to "sweeten" the pot and make it easier to get paid when you do hit a set.  Not a usual tourney tactic but it is early.

Raise bigger to push people out of the pot and take it down now or with a cbet.

What style do you want to project?  How do folks view you?

[Midnight Rose]

Check and hope to get a big hand cheap.

Raise smaller to "sweeten" the pot and make it easier to get paid when you do hit a set.  Not a usual tourney tactic but it is early.

Raise bigger to push people out of the pot and take it down now or with a cbet.

What style do you want to project?  How do folks view you?

I absolutely love this answer; and in all sincerity, it's why I value hachck's advice over a lot of other people's statements.  It's a conditional situation, and no one answer fits all.

[TwoToGo-Grave]

Check and hope to get a big hand cheap.

Raise smaller to "sweeten" the pot and make it easier to get paid when you do hit a set.  Not a usual tourney tactic but it is early.

Raise bigger to push people out of the pot and take it down now or with a cbet.

What style do you want to project?  How do folks view you?

I absolutely love this answer; and in all sincerity, it's why I value hachck's advice over a lot of other people's statements.  It's a conditional situation, and no one answer fits all.

What else is great about this answer is that it's not just about the situation in the game, but how one particular player chooses to play it.  Obviously, all styles and plays can be successful in poker, which is part of what makes it so great.

[hachkc]

:blushing:

Thank you.

[huskerinct]

Call.
Either you get only calls, and see the flop cheap, get lucky hit a set, is best case scenario.  If dealer, SB, or BB raises....you get the benefit of the other limpers in front of you helping your decision.  If the raise isn't huge, call it, and hope to get the set.  If it's a big raise, and you get a cpl of calls, you may wanna dump it.
If you see the flop and it checks to you, maybe stab at it.  If no draws are visible, but there are overs, and you get called, odds are you are behind, play it safe after that. But, to each his own.  Luck is better than skill!  lol