Poker Rules and Seating & Moving Rules

[nutN2Lewz]

HPT Poker Rulebooks
HPT Rulebook - full size with Robert's Rules of Poker in pdf format
HPT Rulebook - booklet size with Robert's Rules of Poker in pdf format
HPT web page

HPT Tournament Rules
HPT Tournament Rules - full size in pdf format
HPT Tournament Rules - booklet size in pdf format
HPT web page

Robert's Rules of Poker
Robert's Rules of Poker - full size rulebook in pdf format
Robert's Rules of Poker - booklet size rulebook in pdf format
HPT web page
Robert's (Bob Ciaffone) web site

TDA Rules in pdf Format
Full-size Rulebook
Booklet-size Rulebook
TDA Discussion Forum

All-in Betting web page

Button Help Page

Poker Dealers & Dealer Errors Page

How To Deal Poker Page

How To Play Hold'em Page

HPT Poker Rules page

HPT Seating Players web page

HPT Moving Players web page

[Salag]

Should we try to keep the 'best' players in the league at seperate tables?

[nutN2Lewz]

I prefer to keep it totally random. It would also be  bit of an advantage to the best players if you ensured that they would not face each other until towards the end of the tournament.

Good luck, nutn

[Salag]

Thanks for the reply.

[mjbrooks44]

I follow nutn's suggestion of drawing cards for table placement.

[simonbampfield]

If i had say 2 tables of 8 players on each would there be any reason to move players from table 1 to table 2 at any stage.
Of course that is without saying that table 2 is down to 3 players while table 1 has still got 7 players.
Other than to even out the players is there any reason to do it?

[BigBlind]

You would also condense people to one table when your player numbers was lower.  I mean have two tables of 4 players would be silly.  But just to move a player for the sakes of moving a player could hurt that player.  When you move to a different table its like starting over from square one.  You need to resize people up and determine the other player's playing style.  It could work to their advantage as well I guess.  But I don't move players except to even tables out or to condense the two table into one final table.   

[nutN2Lewz]

Some tournaments remove entire tables of players (consolodate tables) to slowly get down to one final table but except for players busting out, or leaving the game, there is usually no reason to move players.

Good luck, nutn

[TinCup17]

I let The Tournament Director do everything for me.  It seats the players at random tells you who to move and where when someone busts out.  Don't know what I'd do without it 

[StrangeConcept]

I let The Tournament Director do everything for me.  It seats the players at random tells you who to move and where when someone busts out.  Don't know what I'd do without it 

That was certainly my plan in the 3 table tourney that I ran last night. trouble is that I have designated dealers since many of the players were new, and TTD chose one of the dealers to move as soon as the second person busted out. As the night went on, manually messing with the seating proved too difficult, so I just randomly worked it. No one complained.

I'll be asking the writer of TTD to add a function to fix dealers at tables and to move other people in preference.   

[Salag]

Drawing cards is a good idea too. Random is the best I think now.

[Dr. Neau]

trouble is that I have designated dealers since many of the players were new, and TTD chose one of the dealers to move as soon as the second person busted out. As the night went on, manually messing with the seating proved too difficult, so I just randomly worked it. No one complained.

I'll be asking the writer of TTD to add a function to fix dealers at tables and to move other people in preference.   

That's actually the next feature that I'm adding to mine, if'n you are interested.  It's a frequently requested addition.

[Salag]

Does the tournament director do a good job?

[TinCup17]

Yes.  I use TTD for all of my tournaments.  I usually don't have multiple tables but it works very well for them.  The use interface is the best that I have seen.  There are a few features I wish it had, like keeping track of leagues, but I just made a spreadsheet to take care of that.  Overall I think it is the best one that I have used.

[Dr. Neau]

Overall I think it is the best one that I have used.

Well, that goes without saying since in another post you said it's the only one you've used 

[TinCup17]

I have recently downloaded yours,  it defininatley has more features, but I am still kind of partial to TTD.  No offense.  I will continue to play around with yours, maybe it will grow on me. 

[Dr. Neau]

I have recently downloaded yours,  it defininatley has more features, but I am still kind of partial to TTD.  No offense.  I will continue to play around with yours, maybe it will grow on me. 

Not making a pitch...

TTD is what I'd recommend to anyone who doesn't need the extra functionality my tool provides.

[Salag]

what does dr.neau's have compared to TTD?

[Dr. Neau]

I'll refer you to the feature chart that nutn put together...

http://www.homepokertourney.com/clocks-chart.htm

[TinCup17]

I'll refer you to the feature chart that nutn put together...

http://www.homepokertourney.com/clocks-chart.htm

I have never seen that chart before.  Pretty nice to be able to see what each one can and can't do side by side.  Very nice.

[simonbampfield]

I think I will go with the Dr too.
How much is the "small donation" for the full version?

[Dr. Neau]

"Small donation"?  Where did that come from.

Payment details can be found here:  http://drneau.com/TournamentManager.htm over in the right column.

First reaction is usually, "What the?!?!?!"...but that's the rate I've chosen.

[pokrdrms]

Drneau, I was on your website looking into your league management software. You have some great options , I was wondering if you have added the seating and moving players feature to your software.  I play in my own 2 to 3 table tourneys and this feature in the TD helps to lighten the load, but I would like self-contained League capabilities as in yor program.  Great Site by the way!!

[Dr. Neau]

Hey there.

DrNTM will help you do the following when it comes to seating:
- Seat all players (randomly, or let you select a seat)
- Lock a player(s) into a seat...which you might want to do if someone is a permanent dealer
- Handle table balancing...automatically reseat people from high tables to low tables as players are eliminated.  You specify how out of balance tables should be before the app suggests balancing.
- Handle table consolidation...break down tables when it is time...consolidations can be "reseat all" or just "reseat those moved"...you specify the optimal table size.
- Display the full seating chart on the main console for all to see

More details here: http://drneau.com/images/tmSeatingPanel.JPG
And here: http://drneau.com/images/tmConsoleSeating.JPG

[Salag]

There ar eother programs to help you run a league as well.

www.statsgenie.com and www.homepokerclub.com. Both very good as well.

[apackard]

I just move the short stack and then draw cards for button. Easy for my laid back bunch.

[Dr. Neau]

There ar eother programs to help you run a league as well.

www.statsgenie.com and www.homepokerclub.com. Both very good as well.

As a note, statsgenie can import the files saved by my tool.  A great combo.

[TroyJ]

There ar eother programs to help you run a league as well.
www.statsgenie.com and www.homepokerclub.com. Both very good as well.

The link actually is www.homepokerclub.net

[ltolfree]

I let The Tournament Director do everything for me.  It seats the players at random tells you who to move and where when someone busts out.  Don't know what I'd do without it 

Ditto, If I have more than 1 table, I use Tournament Director.  Everything is so perfectly random there can be no complaints.  I have zero experience with Dr. Neau's and have not even SEEN it run.  I plan on getting the trial version to see if I like it better.  But I definitely would let a pc do all the work

[Dr. Neau]

I let The Tournament Director do everything for me.  It seats the players at random tells you who to move and where when someone busts out.  Don't know what I'd do without it 

Ditto, If I have more than 1 table, I use Tournament Director.  Everything is so perfectly random there can be no complaints.  I have zero experience with Dr. Neau's and have not even SEEN it run.  I plan on getting the trial version to see if I like it better.  But I definitely would let a pc do all the work

Well, there are complaints with randomness too.  We use the random move method in our tournaments, but occasionally someone ends up posting the BB twice in a row (once at old table, once at new table).

[Jaxen]

I'm a TD user ... I usually let the program determine the initial seat assignments (although the draw works too). When TD tells me its time to move a player, I ignore who the program picks and  move the player  in relation to the open seat's button position. If the open seat is 3 spots ahead of the button on the next hand at the short-handed table, the player who would be 3 spots ahead of the button at the table I'm moving him from get moved.

[doc]

i use poker tournament manager and i do same as jaxen.  it seats initially, but moving players around, i do it myself as he described and make the seating change on the software.

i had 79 at my last tournament, here's how i worked the moving.

at each table, i gave the original dealer there (we rotate deal) a set of cards color coded for the table number 1 through 10.

when a player is eliminated, he is given the card for his seat and he must bring me the card.  that card identifies the open seat at that table.  when i receive two cards from the same table and there is a table for which i have no cards, i know it is time to even them out.

i take the last card i received, go to the table that just lost the player and check his seat in relation to the dealer.  then i go to the table that has two more players than the first table and pull the player from that table sitting in the same seat in relation to the dealer.  example:  the player going to be the bb is eliminated from table 1 and tables need to be evened.  i go to table 2 which has two more players than table 1 and pull the bb for the next hand to table 1.

i inform the player to be moved by giving him the card that identifies table color and seat number he is to go to.  he is instructed to take the card and his chips to that table and seat and give the card to the dealer there.  i then take his seat card from the table he was seated at and i now have all open seat cards in my hand ready for the next eliminated player.

doc

[Dr. Neau]

i use poker tournament manager and i do same as jaxen.  it seats initially, but moving players around, i do it myself as he described and make the seating change on the software.

i had 79 at my last tournament, here's how i worked the moving.

at each table, i gave the original dealer there (we rotate deal) a set of cards color coded for the table number 1 through 10.

when a player is eliminated, he is given the card for his seat and he must bring me the card.  that card identifies the open seat at that table.  when i receive two cards from the same table and there is a table for which i have no cards, i know it is time to even them out.

i take the last card i received, go to the table that just lost the player and check his seat in relation to the dealer.  then i go to the table that has two more players than the first table and pull the player from that table sitting in the same seat in relation to the dealer.  example:  the player going to be the bb is eliminated from table 1 and tables need to be evened.  i go to table 2 which has two more players than table 1 and pull the bb for the next hand to table 1.

i inform the player to be moved by giving him the card that identifies table color and seat number he is to go to.  he is instructed to take the card and his chips to that table and seat and give the card to the dealer there.  i then take his seat card from the table he was seated at and i now have all open seat cards in my hand ready for the next eliminated player.

doc

Seems like it would make it pretty difficult for *you* to pay attention to the game...

[scabHead]

I guess we now need to have someway to electrically wire each chair to TD or DNTM to eliminate this conundrum.  That way the software can do it all.  And can we get it to drive motorized chairs too? 

I usually don't have too much trouble moving players fairly but I am only running two table tourneys at this point.  The only headache I get is how to manage it when my two tables get down to 4 each and it is time to collapse to 1 table.  I guess the fairest system would be to "interleave" the players in some fashion.

At my last tourney the way the tables ended up, all of the empty chairs at the final table were on one side of the table so i just filled that side with the new players.  However, in retrospect that gave a nice benefit to the dudes already at the final table since they just had 4 more people get inserted between them and the big blind.

It seems there should be a good way to do it other than "redrawing" for seats.  Any suggestions?

[Dr. Neau]

I guess we now need to have someway to electrically wire each chair to TD or DNTM to eliminate this conundrum.  That way the software can do it all.  And can we get it to drive motorized chairs too? 

I usually don't have too much trouble moving players fairly but I am only running two table tourneys at this point.  The only headache I get is how to manage it when my two tables get down to 4 each and it is time to collapse to 1 table.  I guess the fairest system would be to "interleave" the players in some fashion.

At my last tourney the way the tables ended up, all of the empty chairs at the final table were on one side of the table so i just filled that side with the new players.  However, in retrospect that gave a nice benefit to the dudes already at the final table since they just had 4 more people get inserted between them and the big blind.

It seems there should be a good way to do it other than "redrawing" for seats.  Any suggestions?

Redrawing is the way to do it.  What could be better than that?

[doc]

yes, re-drawing is how we seat the final table.  up to that point, i have the cards for the open seats at the other tables and they are spread on the table to be broken down.  you grab a card, that's your seat and you move.

nuisance playing while moving players?  yes, it is, but everyone knows it must be done.  it is done often with clock stopped, especially breaking down table.

i could certainly have the computer do the moving, but it's just going to move a body.  it can't determine relationship to dealer in moving and keep it fair.

unless you know a way drneau and i would like to know how that is.

doc

[Dr. Neau]

yes, re-drawing is how we seat the final table.  up to that point, i have the cards for the open seats at the other tables and they are spread on the table to be broken down.  you grab a card, that's your seat and you move.

nuisance playing while moving players?  yes, it is, but everyone knows it must be done.  it is done often with clock stopped, especially breaking down table.

i could certainly have the computer do the moving, but it's just going to move a body.  it can't determine relationship to dealer in moving and keep it fair.

unless you know a way drneau and i would like to know how that is.

doc

Note: I'm not trying to sell the software in this post.  Just explaining how we do it since you asked.  I'm both the author and a user. (Kinda backwards from the Remington guy).

I just added the two "move in relation to the button" options to the tool recently, and just used them for real last weekend...

When it came time for the 1st balance, the app popped up a dialog saying we needed to move someone from table 1 to table 3.  It gave me 4 options:
- Select randomly (the way we always used to do it, but inevitably someone gets stuck with 2 BBs in a row)
- Select manually
- Move big blind (the way we do it now)
- Move player to right of button

I selected "Move big blind".  I asked table 1, "Who has the button next hand?".  I asked table 3, "Who has the button next hand?".  I denoted each of those in the dialog and hit "calculate" and "apply".  The dialog then calculated and told me who needed to be moved where based on the information I provided.  Took a total of 10 seconds.  No clock stopping.  Didn't interfere with my play.  Didn't even have to leave me seat. Done.

[spade117]

the proper way is according to tda:

Moving players: In flop games, players will be moved from the big blind to the worst position.

and as for the final table it is fair to everyone that you do a complete redraw and redraw for the button as well.

[doc]

yes, i did ask drneau.  and i like what i hear.  do you have a working temp program or how do you allow a try-out of your program?

doc

[Dr. Neau]

The app is free to download and use.  It's at http://drneau.com/TournamentManager.htm.

You only need the password to use the extended features (manage more than 2 tables, more than 12 players, customize the console design, use the league capabilities).  Assuming you want to try them out, I'd just give you a temp password.

[4ceps]

hey dr neau

does your program have the ability to move a player "relation to the button", ie. replacing a player who would have been, for example 4 spots from the button at the lower-populated table with the player at the same relative position in the higher-poulated table.  the options (as i understand them) are: randomly, manually (which is what i do to achieve the above results), moving the big blind and moving the button. none really fits my need.

if not currently available , this would be an enhancement request (yes, i know this is not the right forum, but i'm more comfortable here and i know you frequent nutn's forum regularly too):

have the option to move in relation to the button.  then ask for the buttons at each table and then move the person at the same relative position to the button as the one just eliminated, from the higher-populated table to the newly vacated spot at the lower-populated table.

i found that i had to get up from my table to figure all this out whenever balancing was needed at the other tables  .  and don't ask me just to ask the players themselves. a lot of them are new and for me to ask what relative position the eliminated person was would have been too much for them.  even my more experienced players couldn't handle that; they're not used to multitable home tourneys.

4ceps

[Addicted]

It does.  When you move players, a wizard pops up that let's you select whether to move player randomly, from a specified seat, or in relation to the button.  It's easy to use.  If you want to move players in relation to the button, you simply check a box next to the player on the button at each table involved in the player move, click enter, and then TM tells you who moves where.

[Dr. Neau]

It does.  When you move players, a wizard pops up that let's you select whether to move player randomly, from a specified seat, or in relation to the button.  It's easy to use.  If you want to move players in relation to the button, you simply check a box next to the player on the button at each table involved in the player move, click enter, and then TM tells you who moves where.

Thanks for picking up my slack, Addicted!

[4ceps]

It does.  When you move players, a wizard pops up that let's you select whether to move player randomly, from a specified seat, or in relation to the button.  It's easy to use.  If you want to move players in relation to the button, you simply check a box next to the player on the button at each table involved in the player move, click enter, and then TM tells you who moves where.

dang it! i thought if i did that, the TM would move the buttons..which is not what i wanted....ok, gotta try it at my next tourney

thanks
4ceps

[nico]

Thanks for all the advices that's very useful!

[4ceps]

It does.  When you move players, a wizard pops up that let's you select whether to move player randomly, from a specified seat, or in relation to the button.  It's easy to use.  If you want to move players in relation to the button, you simply check a box next to the player on the button at each table involved in the player move, click enter, and then TM tells you who moves where.

dang it! i thought if i did that, the TM would move the buttons..which is not what i wanted....ok, gotta try it at my next tourney

thanks
4ceps

so i looked at Dr. Neau's Tournament Manager again since i'm having a tourney on saturday  and it DOES NOT have the option of moving a player in relation to the button!

i repeat it does not have the option of moving a player based on position in relation to the button!

the actual options are:
random (don't want that)
manual (which is what i'm using)
next button (don't want that)
next blind (don't want that)

so by default i use the manual option and i have to get up from my seat and go over to the affected tables to figure out the relative positions. then i enter them manually in TM.

i guess there's a workaround: i can select either next button or next blind and then click the appropriate players who are the buttons.  then i can override the automatically selected players so that the player in the same relative position is chosen instead of the next button or next big blind.

dr neau are you able to add one more option to the pop up window so that the position of the player just eliminated at the low table will be highlighted at the high table automatically?

yours truly, 4ceps
p.s. love your program!

[Dr. Neau]

It does.  When you move players, a wizard pops up that let's you select whether to move player randomly, from a specified seat, or in relation to the button.  It's easy to use.  If you want to move players in relation to the button, you simply check a box next to the player on the button at each table involved in the player move, click enter, and then TM tells you who moves where.

dang it! i thought if i did that, the TM would move the buttons..which is not what i wanted....ok, gotta try it at my next tourney

thanks
4ceps

so i looked at Dr. Neau's Tournament Manager again since i'm having a tourney on saturday  and it DOES NOT have the option of moving a player in relation to the button!

i repeat it does not have the option of moving a player based on position in relation to the button!

the actual options are:
random (don't want that)
manual (which is what i'm using)
next button (don't want that)
next blind (don't want that)

so by default i use the manual option and i have to get up from my seat and go over to the affected tables to figure out the relative positions. then i enter them manually in TM.

i guess there's a workaround: i can select either next button or next blind and then click the appropriate players who are the buttons.  then i can override the automatically selected players so that the player in the same relative position is chosen instead of the next button or next big blind.

dr neau are you able to add one more option to the pop up window so that the position of the player just eliminated at the low table will be highlighted at the high table automatically?

yours truly, 4ceps
p.s. love your program!

4ceps...both "next button" and "next blind" ARE in relation to the button.

What you want is "move player from another table who's in the same position relative to the button as the player who was eliminated".

So, IT DOES have 2 options for moving players in relation to the button.  It doesn't however have the one you appear to now be looking for.

[Acenoid]

does anyone know if the tournament director 1.3x doing that as well?

[BCR_9er]

Should we try to keep the 'best' players in the league at seperate tables?

You should never force to seperate or put together particular people. You should draw cards for seats.

[Detroitdad]

I always do random seating, and only when necessary do I move players (always behind the button). What are these programs (Tournament Director, ect...) and how do I take a look at them.

Thanks,

B

Go Tigers.........Lions suck to much