advise on a possible loose call ?

[luckystraights]

A change of pace, this isn't a final hand or an all-in push 

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1807885

I hold 88, and miss the flop completely, its checked round, so I check. The turn brings a low card, a player bets and its folded to me.

My read on my opponent was that he was predictable enough to lead out if he made a pair of 5's here, which meant my 8's where likely good, assuming my read was correct of course.

The turn brings a blank, in that it didn't help me and I was confident that it didn't help my opponent. I bets out 120, the pot is offering me 3.5 at 420 and I make the call.

I made the call, for two reasons, I was offered a 3.5 return on my money, and expected to come out ahead, even though I was weak.

Whats got me thinking is that, if I had the weak ace in his spot, I would check it down, in case someone held a weaker ace, which he did, witch made me think afterwards I should have pegged for an ace, but it was the bet on the turn on what was a safe card for me that threw me off, should I have dropped it on the turn, and avoided the awkward spot on the river ?

Yep, the 5 could have gave him a set, but he would more likely raise pre-flop with a small pair, to 2 or 3xBB.

PS : If this where in a higher game, I think I would have raised on the turn, to find out where I was, if he came over the top or even called, I could get away from it on the river if he bet, expecting to be beat, but in this game, even if I raised I would fully expect him to call me down with just 65s, so a raise wouldn't clarify much, although with two pair he may have come over the top ?

PPS : Its nice to query a hand that isn't an all-in decision for a change :p

EDIT : I was first to act, that leads me more to thinking I should have folded on the turn regardless of my read, unless an 8 fell ?

Thanks again

[NotFadeAway]

Pot's way too mult-way to even consider playing without a set here.  Just fold to a bet on the turn.

[pauld22]

OK, I'll try.

Pre flop - Don't mind the call.  Could make a case for raising to thin out the field (such as weak aces ).  Easy hand to get away from on a scary board when you can get in cheap.
Flop - Check is good in this spot with 2 over cards on the board (what are you doing if a bet comes here?)
Turn - I would have taken the lead and bet.  About 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot would have worked.  Since we know the results, you wuld have been re-raied (probably big) and you could have let it go there and saved chips on the river.  The check on the flop looks like a buch of misses or weak pairs.  As played, fold.  Way behind to any ace or nine.
River - As played I would have called too.  First, it didn't cost you much to make the call.  Second, you got to show first which means everyone got to see you make a loose call with 3 overs and a (really crappy) straight on the board.  Sets up a nice image for your tight style.

Of course I stink a poker and could be way off.

[Martini]

Sucks to be out of position. If you were on the button with 88 and it checks through then you can go ahead and stab on a cheap street then assess later.

I try to design the flop that I'm looking for with my holdings. If I get what I'm looking for I'm full speed ahead, if not then I will let it go. Maybe take a stab once in a while but usually just write it off.

For snowmen there's not a lot of flops that I want that don't include at least one Eight in it. If I have an overpair to the flop then that means three cards Seven or lower which means a straight, straight draw or two pair are very likely. I will also hope to fade an A or K on the Turn for those guys that will call a flop bet with the six outs that Big Slick gives them. If I am holding 88, I want a Set (Boat or Quads will do also but probably won't get much action) or four to a straight including one of my EIghts. Marginal would be a scattered rainbow board like J72 where I have second pair and can semi-rep a J. I will usually just try to see a flop as cheaply as possible with that hand. Preferably for a limp but if for a raise I want at least three other callers to come along to give me better pot odds.

[luckystraights]

OK, I'll try.

Pre flop - Don't mind the call.  Could make a case for raising to thin out the field (such as weak aces ).  Easy hand to get away from on a scary board when you can get in cheap.

My ussual play with any pair 9's or lower is to flop a set or fold.

Turn - I would have taken the lead and bet.  About 1/2 to 3/4 of the pot would have worked.  Since we know the results, you wuld have been re-raied (probably big) and you could have let it go there and saved chips on the river.  The check on the flop looks like a buch of misses or weak pairs.  As played, fold.  Way behind to any ace or nine.

That was my feeling immediately afterwards, not my style to lead out here, checking a weak ace in this spot is something I would do, which made me go over the hand again to think about why I didn't spot it.

I think what threw me was this guy was a typical, cool I paired type and if he hit the ace I expected him to bet, being in EP though, he probably wanted to be cautious.

OK, I'll try.


Flop - Check is good in this spot with 2 over cards on the board (what are you doing if a bet comes here?)

fold without any hesitation, very easy lay down. looks like me read got me into trouble, I had a sense the 5 helped on the turn, and new he didn't have a set, so felt my 8's where good.

River - As played I would have called too.  First, it didn't cost you much to make the call.  Second, you got to show first which means everyone got to see you make a loose call with 3 overs and a (really crappy) straight on the board.  Sets up a nice image for your tight style.

Ya'know I never considered the effect it would have on my table image, nice point to remember in future.

Thanks.

[luckystraights]

Sucks to be out of position. If you were on the button with 88 and it checks through then you can go ahead and stab on a cheap street then assess later.

I try to design the flop that I'm looking for with my holdings. If I get what I'm looking for I'm full speed ahead, if not then I will let it go. Maybe take a stab once in a while but usually just write it off.

I think what was a factor, was that I have recently found myself low on chips later on, so as I felt I was ahead, I didn't want to abandon a pot to someone with a lower pair. As it turns out the call put me in the same spot :p

[TwoToGo-Grave]

My take is as follows:

PF:  From the SB here (still very early in the SNG), you should just call.  If you raise you are likely just reopening the betting with a little raise or you're taking a large risk raising big with a very small gain (and costing yourself potentially large implied odds if you hit your set for cheap).  Plus, you're doing this out of position, so it barring an eight on the flop, you are going to be faced with tough decisions only.

Flop:  Just check, as you did.  You hit nothing on the flop (plus an ace flopped) in a very multiway pot, so if you bet here, it's really just as a bluff.  Don't turn your hand into 43, as you are if you bet here (you're only called by a hand that beats you, obviously, and with that many opponents, somebody beats you).

Turn:  While I don't like the idea of betting here much more than on the flop, I hate the call.  If the dude is bluffing or semibluffing, just let him have it.  The pot is small and despite your good price, there's really no need to throw these chips away early.  If you had no intention of seeing the turn if bet at (and I assume you didn't), then don't let that blank change your mind.

River:  You're getting 3:1, but those are not profitable odds.  You can only beat a bluff, and it's early, so just fold and move on.

Here's my take on a lot of your early SNG hands:  You're not tight enough.  You must balance taking the best of it with staying alive for the high blind stage.  Remember that chips are not worth nearly as much early as they are later, so don't take unnecessary gambles early, namely if you are calling instead of betting.  It's perfectly fine to hit four or five handed as a smaller stack rather than try to build up a stack before that by forcing plays or making loose plays early, as consistency is rewarded most of all in them.

[luckystraights]

Here's my take on a lot of your early SNG hands:  You're not tight enough.  You must balance taking the best of it with staying alive for the high blind stage.  Remember that chips are not worth nearly as much early as they are later, so don't take unnecessary gambles early, namely if you are calling instead of betting.  It's perfectly fine to hit four or five handed as a smaller stack rather than try to build up a stack before that by forcing plays or making loose plays early, as consistency is rewarded most of all in them.

I've actually started wondering if I'm not making enough moves, but thinking with a clear heads, thats likely just me self doubting myself after having a bad run of things and feeling crap about my game, which I have of late.

I think the key point I've picked up on here, was that with so many people in on the flop, the odds are one of them held an ace, without hitting my set I should have gave up on the turn.

Thanks for all the advise everyone, appreciate it

[Langham]

Lucky, I'm sorry, but the call on the river is pretty bad IMO. You're staring at 3 over cards to your 8's. I don't think there's anyway I would think I have the best hand there.

As has already been noted, you're in the 2nd level of an SNG, so there's no need to continue post flop unless you spike a set or the board comes 3 under cards.

Also, I don't quite follow your logic on the turn. You say the turn brings another low card. If you're unafraid of the ace, why didn't you lead out to take control of the hand? But like you said in your last post, with 7 players in the pot(!!!), one of them has to be holding an ace.

Finally, you gave up over 12% of your stack on that hand, yet in other posts, you've bemoaned the fact that you don't have enough chips to play with later in tourneys..... The 180 you tossed away this hand is a button raise at 25/50.