too many laydowns?

[luckystraights]

I've been thinking lately that I might be making too many big laydowns... this is higtended by my last game.

I was the short stack, and was forced to fold rather a lot of hands, although often I believed I may have been ahead, when  my opponents put me all-in, this goes as low as folding 44 when I missed the flop, I bet out, sensing my opponent also missed, then he puts me all-in, I fold... but goes as high as folding aces.

The most notable hand, I'm short stacked its 4 handed, each of my opponents have over $3.5k I have around $600 - $700 max. After lots of waiting I hit AA and raise, the flop comes KKx, I raise then my lone opponent puts me all-in, I fold knowing that any king has me clearly beat... he then blags on the chat he had total trash, which I don't believe for a nano second, but that fold left my stack decimated, and it seems my biggest mistake in this game was folding too often, especially when I was put all-in.

When I'm put all-in though and miss the flop, and don't have anything sureley its right to fold... this is going round and round in my head now, could you guys give me your views on it please.

The guy was a bit of a lunatic, and afterwards I realized I was bluffed out of lots of pots, but when your short stacked on the bubble, should I have gone all-in, knowing that I could be beaten very easily (maybe not in the AA case, but certainly in others). Whats a sensible freshold, where I go all or nothing, and call the guy down. I am faced with reckless all-in bets all the time now, when you have plenty of chips you can afford to asess the situation and maybe make a stand, but when it puts you all-in,  when should I stand and fight as opposed to back down.

I've become a bit of an expert of the big laydown, but this could also be my biggest weakness.

thanks xxx

[austin5string]

First thought from your AA hand.  If it's 4 handed, and you have 600-700 and the other stacks are over 3500, you shouldn't be raising, you should be pushing all-in.

[Detroitdad]

hmmmmm, I need to lay down more hands............

[luckystraights]

First thought from your AA hand.  If it's 4 handed, and you have 600-700 and the other stacks are over 3500, you shouldn't be raising, you should be pushing all-in.

I think I did my standard positional raise, and your right pushing all-in with AA at that point would have been the best play. I think  I've been playing a little scared, but playing with total loose maniacs, who also bluff a lot puts me in an awkward position unless I have the nuts, they could have anything, so I tread very gingerly when I'm short stacked before the bubble, thats probably my mistake.

[Detroitdad]

I don't believe in playing to cash, yes I know, there are times that your probably do that. I don't want to cash. I want to win friggen first place every time I play!!!!   

Of course that can cause me to finish errrrrr, say...........7 out of 10.....

[luckystraights]

I don't believe in playing to cash, yes I know, there are times that your probably do that. I don't want to cash. I want to win friggen first place every time I play!!!!   

Of course that can cause me to finish errrrrr, say...........7 out of 10.....

Aggression has always been my game plan, but I've become such a wimp lately, I put it down to loosing profit, and then gaining it and then loosing it again, so I'm playing nervous trying to stay ahead.

Which is the wrong move, aggression wins poker I know that, I should be palying like that... folding the aces was a bad move, in this particular game folding 44 when I missed the entire  board was probably a mistake too, but this game was so unusual even for online that It threw me a little, it was just crazy

I am really sick of online players going all-in all the time though

EDIT :

Actually this reminds me very much of the High Stakes Poker episode from season 4 episode 8. The new guy folds the best hand, pocket queens... I guess I was playing semi-normal poker in a gamble game lol

[luckystraights]

Just played a few more games, no cashes initially, but I could feel my game started to come back, as I "took more chances" and eventually my confidence and aggression paid off :-)

heres the moment in pictorial form (took the win in the 2nd hand after)



Sorry it isn't all that clear, I had to shrink the image down to upload it. I called chip leaders all-in raise, risking what I've just gained from the 2nd in chips before he was knocked out with QT, she holds A9 and doesn't improve.

I made the call on the flop by the way, if I'd made it on the turn or river I wouldn't be posting about it lol

[Nerre]

When you are short stacked and have good cards, you shall always push PRE flop. Pushing ON the flop is to dangerous. Why? Because when the flop is on the board there are only two more cards to come, your opponent will either fold (making your profit very small) or call with a better hand (unless you flopped a full house or somethin like that).

Pushing pre flop you will get the blinds, or get called. If you get called, you will double up (great profit) or bust (bad luck, but you couldn't have done better).

With a short stack you just don't have the chips to be able to put a pressure on your opponent on the later streets.

If your stack is 10 BB, you raise 5 BB pre flop, the you only have 5 BB left with a pot of at least 10 BB. And betting half the pot on the flop won't make any opponent fold. It's "almost free" for them and they have the chance of busting you.

[luckystraights]

The sick thing is I'm very skilled with a short stack when 3 handed, whether its because I play better that short handed or because I'm less worried about not cashing I don't know, but I generally play really well.

I am having lots of problems recently with my opponents going all-in, it will usually happen, on the flop or turn, where I have a had, but not one I would like to go all-in with, my opponents seem happy to go all-in with almost anything, so they pick up the pots I'm not prepared to gamble on. Tonights earlier game was the worst I've seen of that type of play, it seemed as soon as I had a hand someone would go all-in, putting me to a tough call, I risk my tournament and a shot at the money on A high, or middle pair or even top pair, when theres so many hands they could hold that could beat me, I've started to fold on most of these occasions, but in these sort of games it seems the correct play at least some of the time is to call and go all-in and to take my shot rather then let my stack dwindle by folding all the time.

[Nerre]

my opponents seem happy to go all-in with almost anything, so they pick up the pots I'm not prepared to gamble on.

Well, they do the right thing... :-) If you have a big stack, use it to put pressure on the shortstacks.

Because they KNOW that you have everything to lose, and they don't.

You have to realise that having a short stack IS a disadvantage. Especially when the games goes shorthanded.

[luckystraights]

Well, they do the right thing... :-) If you have a big stack, use it to put pressure on the shortstacks.

No offense, and others my disagree with me here, but that is totally stupid. Being the big stick you should not put your advantage at risk, by going all-in or even making huge bets on semi bluffs that will lose you the chip lead if they don't pay off.

In this game for instance, the 2nd in chips must have had around 3k when I just about busted him when he went all in, having made a pair of 4's! he could have put just as much pressure on me if he raised only 300, or he could have put me all-in with a raise of around 600. In fact I would have been less likely to call, a bet that would have just put me all-in then an all-in from someone who has me entirely covered like this.

This is why so many big stacks loose there stack so quickly, especially online, once you earn the big stack you need to protect it, and not make stupid plays like going all-in with junk, the big stack should only ever go all-in when he is near certain he has the absolute best hand.

Has this game proved his chips are far far more valuable to me then they are to him.

My problem has been with playing real poker at total idiots, besides the AA disaster, I think my folds have been the correct play, I could only put them on a hand that would easily beat mine, or they wouldn't have gone all-in, I've realized that online players are stupid enough to bluff there entire stack or to place it on the line with bottom pair, so I'm now more inclined to call after laying down the best hand in too many of these marginal situations.

Being short stacked 3 handed is usually not a problem for me, depending on how short stacked I am in relation to the blinds, it usually doesn't take long for the chip lead to send over half there stank to me. It is tougher 4 handed, because as I haven't yet made the money I'm fighting to cash first, then win to reduce my chances of earning a loss in the game, although this does reduce my chances of winning, if I have a very slim shot at second place money, I think I will go to war in these cases more often then I am doing, but otherwise I wouldn't risk a real money reward by chasing several hundred in tournament chips.

[Detroitdad]

I may be wrong here, but it sounds like your short stack a lot deep in the tourney's. Maybe thats where the mistake is. Take it up a notch earlier and try to be one of the "big stacks".

[luckystraights]

I may be wrong here, but it sounds like your short stack a lot deep in the tourney's. Maybe thats where the mistake is. Take it up a notch earlier and try to be one of the "big stacks".

Not wrong at all in fact your  dead on the money. When it comes down to shorthanded I am virtually always the short stack.

The trouble with stepping it up a notch early is how early I will likely have to do it, the initial chips leader usually gets the lead in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd hand by getting looking and knocking one or two other lunatics out, this may seem the exception, but it has been the consesus for my sit-n-go experience up to know.
My play has always been to only play solid hands, and ocastionally in the right spots enter with hands such has KTs or A9s to try and hit the flop, the best strategy for me as been to play tight aggressive and early in the tournament wait for those good hands.

Thinking about how I've been playing recently, I think the weakness in my game is when 4 or 5 handed, I've started to play too passively in these situations, it may be that I'm waiting too long for that magic hand but I think the problem is that the hands I am playing particularilly when in the short stack here I am playing far too passively and letting people steel pots away from me.

A quick summary of how I think I'm probably playing at the moment would be:

Selective Aggressive...... Selective Aggressive.... PASSIVE... PASSIVE... Less-Selective More Aggressive... Even Less Selective, Even more Aggressive... AGGRESSIVE... AGGRESSIVE

The problem is in my opinion at least the passive play around 5 and 4 handed, where I'm trying to survive instead of fighting for my life, no clearer example could be made then folding AA on the flop against a loose nut, I should have pushed pre-flop which was pointed out earlier.

[austin5string]

No offense, and others my disagree with me here, but that is totally stupid. Being the big stick you should not put your advantage at risk, by going all-in or even making huge bets on semi bluffs that will lose you the chip lead if they don't pay off.

Tell that to Jerry Yang. 

[luckystraights]

sorry about all the spelling and grammar errors in the last post, I've been  up all night with hardly any sleep lol

[GPennRef]

First, I concur that you should have pushed all-in with AA if you are the short stack.  Better to get a small profit by the rest folding then to undervalue your hand due to an unlucky flop.  Besides there is a high chance of one of the large stacks to call it because "they can afford to lose".  
Second,  I read in another thread of yours you play the $1.00 games.  Hate to say it but when you play the low of a buy-in, you are going to run into several who don't give it a moment's thought about the buy-in which makes them dangerous because they play like they have nothing to lose when they go all-in with a 72 unsuited.

t/j to say I tend to play the 18 player $1.00 game because it resembles the typical home game I have so I get good practice for my live games.

[luckystraights]

No offense, and others my disagree with me here, but that is totally stupid. Being the big stick you should not put your advantage at risk, by going all-in or even making huge bets on semi bluffs that will lose you the chip lead if they don't pay off.

Tell that to Jerry Yang. 

Happily he got lucky, time after time he was dominated and came through, he was even praying at one point for his outs... for F* sake :p

Without the luck on his side there which he clearly had he would have been in huge trouble, how many times did he double up his opponents over and over, so much  so that they actually became a threat to him, just because he liked to be the bully.

[luckystraights]

Second,  I read in another thread of yours you play the $1.00 games.  Hate to say it but when you play the low of a buy-in, you are going to run into several who don't give it a moment's thought about the buy-in which makes them dangerous because they play like they have nothing to lose when they go all-in with a 72 unsuited.

t/j to say I tend to play the 18 player $1.00 game because it resembles the typical home game I have so I get good practice for my live games.

Your right, I'm sick of seeing crazy or totally idiotic play, sooner or later I will have to write a book on how much I hate internet players, just to de-stress.

I've been after trying an 18 player sit-n-go for awhile now since DetroitDad told me about them, but I would have liked to have a bit more profit on my bankroll before I took what I anticipated to be a greater risk, which I have corse all but lost... though playing in a large table may even improve my chances.

In fact thats settled I'll have a shot at an 18 player game, its the same buy-in anway so no big loss even if I do come up short and it will be a change.

Might not be able to make it on today though, depends how I feel I'm busying till around 11pm GMT, still leaves me plenty of time I spouse if I'm not too tired.

[Detroitdad]

actually I play the 1.20 45 player games and cash frequently. I'm not trying to build a bank roll or anything, just play for fun. I play solid hands, take a few stabs and usually do alright.

I have cashed in 4 of my last 6 of my last 45 player games. 2nd, 4th, 4th, 7th.

I play tight initially, do play position. Use the first two blinds to recognize the maniacs, after the first two blinds I start getting a little more aggressive.

If at any time I get near 10 times the BB you have to lose all fear of getting knocked out and either push or fold. In Poker Stars you can't let them get cheap cards, push or fold!!!

B

[hachkc]

the big stack should only ever go all-in when he is near certain he has the absolute best hand.

I'd disagree with this in general.  When calling an all-in, I'd tend to agree.  If you are the big stack or one of the bigger stacks in a MTT, you have the distinct advantage of being able to put (almost) everyone to a decision for all their chips without risking all yours.  That being said, you need to be selective in when and against who you do this to.  Making this move randomly with J8o is stupid.  Doing this from the BB with 78s against a semi-loose, passive middle stack that limped in the CO is a different story.

FYI
When you post the details of hands you won/lost and are asking for advice, please post the blinds, antes, # of players and payouts along with the stack sizes. 

The AA hand you mentioned earlier was confusing.  You have 700, big stack has 3500, you raise preflop and bet the flop and then fold to a raise.  How much money did you have left?  I can't imagine you have more than 300 here.  At anything from the 25/50 level or above, that's a horrible play IMO.  Possibly I can see making this fold at the 10/20 or 15/30 level but then you need to ask yourself how did he get to 3500 so quick and why am I down to 700 so quick.

[hachkc]

If at any time I get near 10 times the BB you have to lose all fear of getting knocked out and either push or fold. In Poker Stars you can't let them get cheap cards, push or fold!!!

At 10bb or so, you need to be 1st in and pushing; maximize that fold equity.  Be leery of this with big stacks and shorter stacks to your left and feast on the middle stacks especially those that limped ahead of you.  Personally, I hate playing with more than 10bb but less than 15bb.  I have so little maneuvering room now; not enough chips to raise usually and too many to push.  I tighten up here and hope for uber premium hands only.   Once I get to 10bb or less, I loosen up significantly and play more for steals and hope I have live cards if called.

[NotFadeAway]

I would like to share a few thoughts on this topic.
1.  On the aces hand you don't HAVE to shove preflop.  Actually, if the blinds are fairly small raising would be a terrible play.  However, you probably should pot commit yourself.  If the blinds are, say, 25 and 50, making it 200 to go and shoving any flop wouldn't be a bad play.  Just make sure that your opponents don't get a good price to stack you when you size your preflop raise.
2.  You're on the right track about big stack play, but I disagree a little bit.  The importance of protecting your stack is huge.  In fact, spewing in this spot is one of the major flaws of many weak players.  However, you can wield your stack as a weapon, especially if you're on the bubble or if your opponents are too tight.  Personally, I don't like to just shove with a big stack (unless the stacks of my opponents demand it), but instead I like to risk less, while still putting their stacks to the test (if an opponent has 2000 with 100/200 blinds you can put his stack at risk for 600 just as well as shoving 2000; if he shoves you fold unless you're priced in with your cards.)    So:  certainly don't spew, but you don't have to play super tight with a big stack either.  In fact, just keep trying to make correct decisions.
3.  With 10 BBs and a monster (such as aces) you don't want to exploit your fold equity.  You're better off trying to get action.  The exception is if you've been shoving and not getting called.  Then you're well off to shove, as your fold equity has been helping and should continue to help you in future hands.
4.  I disagree with the statement in this thread (and the prevailing mindset) that players who don't care about the buy in are extra 'dangerous' somehow.  It's my experience that good, tricky players are the most dangerous, not loose donkeys.  In fact, they're certainly the ones who supply most of a winning player's profit at these stakes. 
5.  I watched the Main Event Final Table live (or the second half of it anyway) and I thought Yang outplayed the rest of the table pretty clearly.  He knew he couldn't beat these guys postflop, so he decided to outplay them preflop and give himself a chance to get lucky if he got called.  That's a very good strategy if you know you're outclassed, and he deserves credit for coming up with a great plan and executing it so well.

Anyway, sorry for rambling so much, but I wanted to share a few thoughts on this thread.  (Hopefully someone will bother to read this far too long post.)   

[luckystraights]

FYI
When you post the details of hands you won/lost and are asking for advice, please post the blinds, antes, # of players and payouts along with the stack sizes. 

The AA hand you mentioned earlier was confusing.  You have 700, big stack has 3500, you raise preflop and bet the flop and then fold to a raise.  How much money did you have left?  I can't imagine you have more than 300 here.  At anything from the 25/50 level or above, that's a horrible play IMO.  Possibly I can see making this fold at the 10/20 or 15/30 level but then you need to ask yourself how did he get to 3500 so quick and why am I down to 700 so quick.

Sorry, I was playing on my friends computer I didn't have my usual setup to take notes on the game, it stuck in my head so much that I posted from memory the events.

I couldn't agree more folding AA was stupid.

However, I don' think there is ever a right time to risk your entire stack unless you have to and I would argue thats even worse a play.

Just completed an 18 person sit-n-go and I managed to dominate the table with the big stack throughout and not once did I go all-in. Raises apply pressure, going all-in, especially to online players who seem to have a fetish for going all-in is stupid unless you have the nuts! just my opinion on the matter.

NB: If it isn't clear, I'm not against calling all-in bets, just against going all-in with the big stack to intimidate or otherwise try and outplay your opponents, especially in marginal situations.

[luckystraights]

5.  I watched the Main Event Final Table live (or the second half of it anyway) and I thought Yang outplayed the rest of the table pretty clearly.  He knew he couldn't beat these guys postflop, so he decided to outplay them preflop and give himself a chance to get lucky if he got called.  That's a very good strategy if you know you're outclassed, and he deserves credit for coming up with a great plan and executing it so well.

Putting it into that context I would tend to agree, I guess I'm just biased. In all the games  I've played online, I think I've only met one guy who was really a match Acu-Ted, I think it was, what I do see a lot his huge raises pre-flop with junk and loads and loads of "maybe I'll get lucky all-in's".

If he knew he couldn't win on post flop play, a very aggressive style pre-flop would be a very good play, I have done  similar things heads-up, adapting my strategies to my opponents.

Maybe I was too quick to judge in this case, thanks for pointing this out.

[hachkc]

However, I don' think there is ever a right time to risk your entire stack unless you have to and I would argue thats even worse a play.

Just completed an 18 person sit-n-go and I managed to dominate the table with the big stack throughout and not once did I go all-in. Raises apply pressure, going all-in, especially to online players who seem to have a fetish for going all-in is stupid unless you have the nuts! just my opinion on the matter.

NB: If it isn't clear, I'm not against calling all-in bets, just against going all-in with the big stack to intimidate or otherwise try and outplay your opponents, especially in marginal situations.

The original question was concerning the big stack and putting players all-in as by the technical definition, the big stack cannot be all-in as he has more chips than anyone else.  My reading of the question was basically that you would bet enough so that any player would have to go all-in in order to call you.  This may involve betting the equivalent of 70% or more of their stack so they are effectively all-in.  In many instances, the reason for doing this has very little to do with your cards but an understanding of your opponents.  Remember, players need a better hand to call a raise then they need to raise in the first place.  This is the known as the Gap concept and is the basic foundation of fold equity which is a powerful weapon in tournies.  On occassion, you will run into a made hand and that's life and so is getting AA cracked or having your KK run into AA and other bad luck.  The point is your stack is a weapon that when used properly can be more powerful than any cards you hold.  Assume you have 4200 chips on the BU with QJo, its folded to you, the blinds are 75/150, the SB has 1200 chips and BB has 1500 chips.  The SB and BB are both decent players and don't get out of line much.  IMO you should raise a sufficient amount to effectively put them alll-in like 900 or so.  This accomplishes pretty much the same as going all-in IMO.  They both know that they can't call you without going all-in and if they push, you'll call in a heartbeat.  That was the real point of my post.  Change the the sb and bb stacks to 600 & 750 and this is proobably a bad play as their range that they'll call with is much bigger so you shold have a more solid hand.  Putting middle stacks to the test is where the money is.

[NotFadeAway]

I agree with you to some degree hachkc, but you do have to make sure that you're not laying too large of a price when you do this.  I wouldn't be afraid of running into a hand here as much as getting called by A-9, K-J or some other marginal hand.  The blinds here are too short to play tight, so if you're raising light too much you will probably be punished for it.  If they had around 1800 or so each I would agree with you however This is in part because a raise of less than 900 would effectively accomplish the same thing; if you raise to 500 and the man with 1800 shoves you can fold since you are only getting about 1.8 to 1 (depending on if my math was good here.)  You can often put your opponent's stack at risk without risking nearly as much as he has, as long as you size your bets correctly.  This is how I like to use a large stack (not by shoving with marginal hands, but by putting entire stacks at risk for a fraction of the risk, at least to me.)

[luckystraights]

When the blinds get huge I often decrease my raises towards the short stacks, so If I do run into a marginal hand that he's going to play as he needs to take a pot, I can keep the pot at a price which would limit is come-back if he won, whilst still applying pressure with my pre-flop raise.

[hachkc]

When the blinds get huge I often decrease my raises towards the short stacks, so If I do run into a marginal hand that he's going to play as he needs to take a pot, I can keep the pot at a price which would limit is come-back if he won, whilst still applying pressure with my pre-flop raise.

I'm confused a bit on this one.  Are you saying that you keep your raises smaller so you can fold to short stack that goes all-in?  Or are you saying that you are trying to keep the pot small enough to the short stack doesn't get all-in which sounds odd to me?  Of course, short stack can be a relative term to some.  Some folks define them in terms of stack vs stack while I prefer defining them in terms of stack vs blinds.  A guy with 900 chips at the 10/20 level is not a short stack IMO while a guy with 900 at the 50/100 level is a short stack.

[hachkc]

I agree with you to some degree hachkc, but you do have to make sure that you're not laying too large of a price when you do this.  I wouldn't be afraid of running into a hand here as much as getting called by A-9, K-J or some other marginal hand.  The blinds here are too short to play tight, so if you're raising light too much you will probably be punished for it.  If they had around 1800 or so each I would agree with you however This is in part because a raise of less than 900 would effectively accomplish the same thing; if you raise to 500 and the man with 1800 shoves you can fold since you are only getting about 1.8 to 1 (depending on if my math was good here.)  You can often put your opponent's stack at risk without risking nearly as much as he has, as long as you size your bets correctly.  This is how I like to use a large stack (not by shoving with marginal hands, but by putting entire stacks at risk for a fraction of the risk, at least to me.)

The numbers could use some tweaking and are debatable but in general I don't like raising into a SS with an intention of folding if he pushes back at me.  If I have a SS to act after me, I'm not raising a pot with the intention of folding it to his push.  I want him to know I'm not folding this hand if he pushes.  A 500 raise into 1800 stack (assume 100/200 levels) is giving him a enough room to push you out (fold equity).  Against a smart player, he can use this against you.  This isn't a hard rule but like anything in poker, its player and situation dependent.   Change that raise to 1000 and he should have a much harder time making a decision as he knows you will call as there is no fold equity in the hand as you are getting 3.5:1 to call.  When it comes to playing against SS, I only bet when I'm expecting them to either fold to my raise and/or with the expectation that I'm calling a push.  If I'm not going to call a push by them, then I'm not gonna raise in the first place.  I might limp though but that's not a great play either except against very tight players.